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The EC recently installed a 5 KMH speed limit sign at our complex.
Can this be enforced?
Can they do this without discussion?
How is this measured, how can this be realistically judged?
Do members of the EC have the right to confront drivers on this issue?
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Replies
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Do you have an issue with driving safely to protect other residents?
I don’t think GeminiBabe was being ‘bolshy’ — or at least I hope not! If you look at the Act, it says a lot about the Owners’ Corporation having to maintain the common property, but I couldn’t find anything about protecting occupants’ and visitors’ persons. Similarly, the standard by-laws enjoin proper dress and clean language, and can be used to stop kids from skateboarding in the carpark, but say nothing about stopping people from driving dangerously.
My scheme has posted standard ‘shared area’ warning signs with a 10 km/h limit (realistically about as slow as a car can be driven; 5 km/h is barely a brisk walk) but it has no ‘black letter’ law behind it. It was discussed at an Executive meeting and seemed an appropriate thing to do for various reasons. No-one has questioned our action and we would probably have the common law on our side if it was challenged. I don’t think we could measure speeds in the limited space available, and a smart lawyer could probably make mincemeat of us if it became an issue in determining liability in the event of a collision. We could say, if challenged, that we had made an effort to bring about responsible behaviour.
It would be interesting to know how this sort of thing is managed in public and semi-public (e g supermarket) carparks.
Re speed limit signage on Common Property GeminiBabe asked:
Can this be enforced?
A – in the absence of a Special By-Law, NO.
Can they (the E/C) do this without discussion?
A – as the new signage could be considered an addition to the Common Property, NO. But your Owners Corporation could specially resolve to erect the signage if ≥75% of those Owners in attendance at a General Meeting voted to do so.
How is this (speed) measured, how can this be realistically judged?
A – It can’t be
Do members of the EC have the right to confront drivers on this issue?
A – if Member/s feels the need to, particularly if a vehicle’s speed is considered dangerous to residents or their guests, signage or not, YES.
But as JGOWI commented, do you or other residents of your Plan have a problem with driving safely on Common Property; it’s not a big ask in my opinion.
I agree with Whale unless you register a bylaw it is meaningless except as a visual deterient.
Even if you did register it as a bylaw trying to enforce it would be a nightmare because you would have to prove they exceeded the speed limit (do you have access to a properly calibrated police speed gun??).
Use the sign as a thread and hope they don’t know any better.
Some of the legal issues associated with motor accidents occuring on private property were brought out on the last episode of “Four Corners” entitled “While they were sleeping”. In NSW at least, it seems that police powers to prosecute drivers on private land are limited. This program is currently still available on i-view and I found it to be well worth watching.
Whilst speed limit signs are virtually impossible to enforce on strata property, at least they give a reminder to owners and visitors what is reasonably expected. If you have a persistent offender it is possible to estimate their average speeds over a known distance by using a stopwatch.
@Whale said:
How is this (speed) measured, how can this be realistically judged?
A – It can’t be
Actually it can.
You measure a fixed distance and you time the vehicle through the fixed distance using a stop watch. Average velocity through the sector, in metres per second, will be the distance, in metres, divided by the time, in seconds. It is easy enough to then convert to km/h if that is your preferred units.
You then determine the error in the calculation by using a basic high school level error formula from any good physics website. The error is calculated by using the distances you missed starting and stopping the stop watch by (which will be a metre at the most) and the time you took to start / stop the stopwatch which will be about 0.25 seconds each time.It is the type of thing many high school kids did/still do as a field experiment in physics. Measure two observables, determine the error and produce data.
I do it in my SP where we have a 20km/h speed by-law. I sometimes report vehicles who are traveling over 30km/h and given the error on the measurement is only +/- 1.5km/h then without doubt these people are speeding. The EC has repeatedly refused to actin any complaint.
Actually clocked a guy on a push bike doing over 30km/h, the current record is over 45km/h, the worst offenders are those who champion keeping the by-law and the by-laws do not apply to visitors.
If you liked science at high school you can get fancy and use lasers, mirrors and timing gates but that is for those who love a good physics experiment.
If science was something that sent you to sleep at high school then there are other options. You can buy a speed gun (Bushnell) for about $150 on that auction website and it has an accuracy of +/- a few km/h.Does the speed gun need to be calibrated like a police speed gun? The level of required proof is “on the balance of probabilities”. So if you have a 10km/h speed limit and a speed gun with an error of a few km/h and you are recording people above 20kh/m then on the balance of probabilities these people are speeding.
Even a police sped gun has an error margin, but it is quite small.Speeding by-laws are nothing but trouble as you will find owners do not like having their activity monitored even if they are breaking a by-law they put in place.
@DaveB said:
Some of the legal issues associated with motor accidents occuring on private property were brought out on the last episode of “Four Corners” entitled “While they were sleeping”. In NSW at least, it seems that police powers to prosecute drivers on private land are limited. This program is currently still available on i-view and I found it to be well worth watching.Whilst speed limit signs are virtually impossible to enforce on strata property, at least they give a reminder to owners and visitors what is reasonably expected. If you have a persistent offender it is possible to estimate their average speeds over a known distance by using a stopwatch.
This is material i got from a very good strata lawyer:
Internal roads
Transport legislation is detailed and very complicated.Here is a list of relevant legislation (which is probably far from exhaustive):
Road Transport (General) Act 2005
Road Transport (Driver Licensing) Act 1998
Road Transport (Safety and Traffic Management) Act 1999
Road Transport (Vehicle Registration) Act 1997
Motor Vehicles Taxation Act 1988
Motor Accidents Compensation Act 1999
Roads Act 1993
Summary Offences Act 1988Many sections of these acts apply to an area that is “an area that is open to or used by the public and is developed for, or has as one of its main uses, the driving or riding of motor vehicles”
This phrase was considered by the Court of Appeal in Ryan v Nominal Defendant (2005) 62 NSWLR 192 (in that case in connection with motor accidents compensation legislation).
Santow JA, with whom McColl JA agreed (forming the majority) held that “a dirt track, which, though on private property, effectively formed an extension of [the public road] as it was separated from the street only by a lockable metal gate” was “open to or used by the public”.
This was despite the use of the road by the public being a trespass. Santow JA said (at [137]):
“it is not irrelevant that use may be technically a trespass, I would in the circumstances of this case not be deterred from the conclusion that the track was “used by the public” by its trespassory character. The weight of that factor is greatly diminished by what I refer to as “the variety and frequency of that usage, and the ineffectiveness of the measures to prevent it”. That ineffectiveness amounts to something close to tolerance … “
The case is reported at 62 NSWLR 192 and the unreported can be found at:
https://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/scjudgments/2005nswca.nsf/2005nswca.nsf/We…
Of course that is just the starting point (and then only in respect of certain legislation, not all of it … )
Picking up on SMO’s high school physics concept – which makes perfect sense, except that it requires someone standing there with a stopwatch and then everyone else believing them – a fairly simple security camera with a time code on its display would not only provide the measurement of the speed but the evidence of the offence.
If you also have a by-law in place, it would certainly give your committee the grounds on which to issue a Notice To Comply (or whatever the equivalent is in your state).
That’s assuming, of course, that the speeder wasn’t on the EC.
The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
@JimmyT said:
Picking up on SMO’s ….. concept … it requires someone standing there with a stopwatch and then everyone else believing them –That’s assuming, of course, that the speeder wasn’t on the EC.
I think Jimmy has given himself a nice curly question to ask the Strata Conference.
As Jimmy points out believability can be an issue. Believability often comes down to who your friends are as ones friends tend to believe what they are told.
My SP does not have a monopoly on cronyism. When owner A says owner B (an EC member of friend of the EC clique) is speeding and provides field data from a speed trap the EC declines to act on the matter BUT when owner C, a friend of EC members, just says owner D was doing 70km/h the EC sit up and listen and pursue the matter.
How does reform plan to address the issue of cronyism not only in relation to by-law enforcement but in the day to day management of many SPs?
@SMO said:
How does reform plan to address the issue of cronyism not only in relation to by-law enforcement but in the day to day management of many SPs?
Their is already a procedure in place you (any resident) can take action at CTTT against any other resident breaching a bylaw by going to concillation and adjudication.
This option isn’t restricted to the OC, EC or SM, they are available to all residents.
In QLD if an EC refuses to take action against a breach of bylaws the EC can be brought before the BCCM (CTTT in NSW) because it has a duty to enforce the bylaws written into the act (not sure if this can be done in NSW as the EC is not oblidged to enfore the bylaws in the NSW act).
@kiwipaul said:
@SMO said:
How does reform plan to address the issue of cronyism not only in relation to by-law enforcement but in the day to day management of many SPs?
Their is already a procedure in place you (any resident) can take action at CTTT against any other resident breaching a bylaw by going to concillation and adjudication.
This option isn’t restricted to the OC, EC or SM, they are available to all residents.
In QLD if an EC refuses to take action against a breach of bylaws the EC can be brought before the BCCM (CTTT in NSW) because it has a duty to enforce the bylaws written into the act (not sure if this can be done in NSW as the EC is not oblidged to enfore the bylaws in the NSW act).
The Qld position is one i advocated in the reform submissions.
I am aware an owner can take someone to CTTT for breaches of by-laws if the OC decline to act BUT how is it in the interests of the OC for the EC to decline to act on by-law breaches. There are so many references to “the EC must act in the interests of the OC” lines from CTTT matters it would fill pages.If it comes to the point where an owner needs to take the action then the EC’s ability, motives, intent, are already in question.
Here is some mouth watering material for those who want to consider the status of the roadways in their strata plan;
My neighbor has a 4wd and on more the one occasion has been seen driving down the hill, inside the SP, with 3 young girls sitting on the bonnet and holding on to the bulbar with their legs hanging between the radiator and bulbar. Other owners who have a ute and tray-back let the kids ride around in the back. I see that almost daily. Some owners let the kids roll down the windows and sit on the window-sill hanging out of the car.
I was once talking to the police on my lot when a ute with kids in the back went past and it drew a comment from the constable. He asked me about the roads and i said private property but public access.
Three up on an unregistered motor bike, all with no helmets, is also another sight.Perhaps some kid needs to end up under a car before someone wants to do something.
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