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  • #8604

    Hi All.

     

    We got a notice to comply for having a cat in our unit without permission. It’s a house cat that is indoors 100% of the time, the nosey EC secretary spotted a bag of Kittie Litter in my garage one day and thats how we got busted. We are the owners of the unit.

     

    The strata law that applies in my situation is option 2, you need EC written approval and it cannot be unreaonably witheld. When we purchased the unit, the strata report stated that there was no history on rulings involving pets.

     

    The letter sent by the strata manager provided the reason “we dont want to set an animal keeping precendant”. This is despite the block having a communal pond with fish in it.

     

    So I replied in writing and requested formal approval. I then telephoned a week later and was told by the strata manager that we were denied. I asked for that to be put in writing and for the reason to be given and he refused stating that he was not legally required to put it in writing and that the reason was given in the first letter (that they dont want to set a precedant). Is that correct? I couldnt find anything requiring him to deny my request in writing.

     

    So I am now going to mediation and I believe their denial is unreasonable. I don’t expect to have any luck at mediation but in any case, is there any way for me to recover the costs of the mediation if the issue is resolved at that point?

     

    I assume that if I have to go CTTT then I can apply for all my costs, including mediation to be paid by the other party?

     

    If you have any other thoughts about my situation, I would greatly appreciate that too. To me it seems like an unreasonable decision but I am obviously emotionally invested here and may not be seeing the issue correctly.

     

    Thanks in advance

Viewing 12 replies - 1 through 12 (of 12 total)
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  • #17419
    struggler
    Flatchatter

      I have a friend who was told by his EC that he could not have his small dogs in his apartment. The reason was because they are there. There has been no complaints, no incidents within the complex. It is just because one EC member saw the dogs going for a walk. He took it to mediation nd then the tribunal and he won.

      Have.a look at the pets in the city website. It has a lot of information about pets in strata. Also, the law society website has a section about pets in strata. If you re friendly with any other owners you could talk to them as to whether they are bothered by the fact you have a cat.

      I believe it is unreasonable to deny permission for a pet simply because it is there. If they do not want pets in their complex they should have had that written into the by laws.

      #17421
      Anonymous

        I must ask you, Robbiejuve, why was the cat there without permission at all, since you knew it was required? You should simply have asked for permission in the beginning, as per the requirements.

        Given that, if you actually get to the CTTT you are in the lap of the gods. But as you may know by now, very strange things happen every day at the CTTT. Things get unpredictably wacky.

        Don’t waste your money on lawyers. Costs are almost never awarded at the CTTT anyway, seriously.

        Best advice I would give you is just stay there, with your pussy, and let them call for the mediation, not you, and if they do, don’t engage which is your right. Then let them take you to the CTTT. They won’t.

        But as I said at the start you should have done the right thing. Which you will do from now on and don’t rock the boat.

        #17422
        Jimmy-T
        Keymaster


          @Blue
          Swimmer said:
          I must ask you, Robbiejuve, why was the cat there without permission at all, since you knew it was required? You should simply have asked for permission in the beginning, as per the requirements.

          I agree with most of what Blue Swimmer has written but the question of why permission wasn’t sought before the cat was introduced speaks to the issue of why there is a by-law that appears to allow pets under certain circumstances but then, in reality, is used to operate as a blanket ban.

          As BS says, if they want a ban they should pass a by-law banning pets.  A by-law that sets out the conditions under which pets can be allowed, implies that pets are allowed and therefore any refusal on the basis of “we don’t want pets” is unreasonable.

          I also disagree on the tactics of not attending the mediation.  I would attend, state the case as I’ve outlined and leave it at that. It doesn’t look good if you refuse to attend – maybe you don’t care enough – but there is no compulsion to concede anything at the mediation.

          As for costs, there are very very few circumstances under which the CTTT is allowed award costs and even then they don’t.  So forget it.  But if the cat isn’t causing any problem to anyone else, refusal is unreasonable and you are in the right.

          The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
          #17425

          Thank you for all your excellent replies.

           

          You are correct in that it was wrong of me to obtain a cat without permission and I did apologise for this in my letter to strata management, the same letter I then went on to officially asks for permission and which was subsequently denied.

           

          Also note that in our notice to comply we were asked to seek alternative arrangements for the cat and we actually did this and there is no cat on the premises at this very moment, so right now we are not breaching that particular law.

           

          My next move is what confuses me. The strata manager told me to go down the mediation path if I wasn’t happy with the decision but Jimmy and Blue’s replies suggest I ignore the notice, get the cat back in the apartment and wait for them to take me to mediation?

           

          I was under the impression that if I didn’t comply with their notice to get rid of the cat they could immediately enforce the $550 fine (or whatever the amount is) ? If there is no risk of that fine then I will happily have to cat back.

           

          I think it is totally unfair that I have to pay for mediation just to get a proper reason from EC for not having a cat but I don’t want to risk a larger financial cost by having a $550 fine enforced on me.

           

          Thanks again for your time, much appreciated.

          #17426
          Jimmy-T
          Keymaster


            @Robbiejuve
            said:
             

            My next move is what confuses me. The strata manager told me to go down the mediation path if I wasn’t happy with the decision but Jimmy and Blue’s replies suggest I ignore the notice, get the cat back in the apartment and wait for them to take me to mediation?

            The question is, do you a) bring the cat back home and let the EC pursue action against you, which must start with mediation; b) bring the cat back and take action at Fair Trading to force them to permit it; or c)r leave the cat where it is and take action at Fair trading which will cost you the best part of $80 and is not refundable?  The latter is the more legitimate way but I would be tempted to take the first route and let them pursue you (at their expense). 

            If you simply bring the cat back into the home they can follow up the Notice To Comply with a complaint to Fair Trading – this will cost you nothing.

            The $550 fine is a worst-case scenario and is highly unlikely to be applied in your case.  Much worse offences get much lower fines than $550.  And given that the EC appears to be applying the by-law incorrectly there is every chance that you will win the case anyway.

            If I were in your shoes, I would reply to the Notice To Comply and tell them that you believe they are imposing the by-law incorrectly, that you have been refused permission unreasonably and therefore you are happy for them to take action against you at the CTTT because you think you will win there.

            At the same time, I would be strongly tempted to bring the cat back into the unit, where it belongs.

            Then I would wait for the mediation to be called (at their expense), attend the meeting and restate the belief that you have unreasonably been refused permission because there is no ban on pets in the by-laws but they are trying to impose one.

            The EC members not wanting pets in the building is not a ‘reasonable’ basis for refusing an application.  The by-law says pets are allowed subject to permission being given on a reasonable basis.  The EC is trying to countermand the wishes of the Owners Corps which has approved the by-law allowing pets.

            If the EC wants a ban on all pets they have to get 75 percent of owners to agree to a new by-law but I think they have even left it too late to make that work retrospectively.

            Respond to the Notice To Comply as I have described, attend mediation if you are called and I’m pretty sure you will be OK if it goes to an adjudication.  If, in the final summation, the CTTT does decide that this de facto ban is allowed (unlikely), you will almost certainly be given the opportunity to find a new home for the cat before you are fined.

            Also, demand all correspondence in writing, and note any attempts to bully you by sending letters of complaint to the strata manager as they can be used in evidence at the CTTT.  

            Attend any EC meetings where your issue is on the agenda (as it must be, if they are to discuss it) and refuse to leave if they say they want to discuss it in private – you are entitled to be there, even if you may not be allowed to speak, and there is no such thing as ‘private’ business in Owners Corporations.

            Also, ask to see the minutes of the EC meeting that decided to issue the Notice To Comply so that you can make a record of the reasons given for the refusal.

            Whichever route you take, hang in there – the EC is wrong and you are right.

            The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
            #17427
            Jimmy-T
            Keymaster

              @struggler said:
               

              Have.a look at the pets in the city website. It has a lot of information about pets in strata. Also, the law society website has a section about pets in strata. If you re friendly with any other owners you could talk to them as to whether they are bothered by the fact you have a cat.

              You’ll find the Pets In The City website HERE then go to the menu on the left and click on “overcoming pet permissability issues”. And I think THIS is the Law Society document Struggler is referring to

              The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
              #17423

              Thank you very much for those follow up replies and I have spent the last few hours going through those websites too, thanks Struggler. Glad that we can have our cat back without having to wait many months to go to CTTT and deal with this unreasonable EC

               

              Cheers guys

              #17431
              struggler
              Flatchatter

                My friend had to agree to a code of conduct for his dogs as part of the CTTT ruling. He had already provided his EC with such a statement but they wanted to take it further, mainly on the urging of just one member.
                As part of your preparation to take this further, get all the information about your cat prepared as is recommended by the websites I mentioned (their vaccinations, letter from vet) and that they will not be free to wander on common property, will not pee in the corridor nor claw the carpet in the foyer. And that all waste will be properly disposed of (wrapped and placed in bins).
                It would be reasonable to deny the keeping of a pet if such pet caused problems in the complex and the owners did nothing to address them. It is unreasonable to deny the pet simply because it resides there unless the bylaws state no pets. And I would be inclined to bring the cat back too.

                #17433
                Jimmy-T
                Keymaster

                  Robbiejuve could do a lot worse than include those conditions in his reply to the EC.  He can promise that his cat won’t do any of those nasty things and say he is prepared to make that a condition of acceptance.  It will all go to strengthen his case if it gets to the CTTT.

                  The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                  #17434
                  struggler
                  Flatchatter

                    And as for Robbiejove not getting permission for his cat prior to moving in, well there is enough to worry about when moving as we all know. And with some EC’s taking their own good time to get around to doing anything let alone approving a pet, such as my EC, then even those with the best intentions may find themselves in breach of by not waiting for approval.

                    In my complex we have quite a few pet owners. And I know for a fact that not one of them has applied for official approval to keep them. Why? I believe most people believe that because the by laws state that permission will not be unreasonably refused and that this complex is advertised as pet friendly then that is permission enough.

                    And though I present myself as a stickler for following by laws, the fact that all pet owners in my complex are very responsible in not allowing them on common property and no noise or waste issues then these by laws are far more important than whether or not anyone has actually officially said yes to their being here. And with my EC, most pets would have died of old age before they got around to the approvals anyway.

                    Robbiejove has done the right things in keeping his cat inside his apartment. So no one had seen the cat, just the litter which could well have been purchased for someone else. If the little hadn’t been seen and Robbiejove continued to be a good resident pet owner, it may well have transpired that no one would have ever known there was a cat there.

                    #20418

                    Hi All.

                     

                    It’s been a while but I thought I would update this thread with the final outcome of this issue. A huge thanks to all that replied.

                     

                    I had a sit down with the EC and was very courteous, thanked them for their time and laid out my argument for having a cat. This was not formal mediation, just a meeting I asked for and to which they agreed.

                     

                    They stuck to their guns and didn’t want a bar of it so push came to shove and I told them that I was keeping the cat and if they had a problem with it, THEY could take me to tribunal but I warned them that they had unreasonably withheld permission so they should expect to lose.

                     

                    Thats the last I heard about it, no issues since and my cats are happilly living in my unit. 2 cats now, back then it was 1. I actually foster cats so a revolving door of cats actually.

                     

                    Thanks all.

                    #20430
                    Kangaroo
                    Flatchatter

                      And now everyone can see why some schemes ban pets completely.

                      Because of creeping precedents.

                      There’s a communal pond with fish in it, so I can have a cat.

                      If I can have one cat, then I can have two cats.

                      And I can run a revolving door of foster cats, with no references as to their previous good behaviour.

                      Having read this story, I believe that “not wanting to create a precedent” is a justifiable reason and not “unreasonable”.

                      Congratulations on all the stress and work you have caused your EC.

                      In view of the precedent you have created, maybe soon one of your neighbours will bring (without permission) a big cat-eating dog into the scheme.

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