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  • #8777
    KEB

       I have a sticky situation whereby i signed a lease with a clause added that i could ‘have the dog stay occassionally but not reside on the premises’.  A few things have happened in my first weeks in the property:

      – the owners in another unit complained (within the first 24hrs of us moving in and the dog was being relocated the next day, she didnt bark, bite or do anything to cause a complaint other than just exist)

      – after the complaint by the (lawyer) neighbours, the landlord says she never approved the clause  and that the agent made it up!

      – the landlord verbally told me she was ok with the dog but has since changed her mind.

      – I have been told pets are not permitted by the strata by laws but no one can produce the document for me.

      I would like to know where I stand legally? What are my rights in this situation? Does my signed  lease override the strata by laws? I was not given the by laws when i signed the lease. Its not fair that I suffer because my landlord did not manage the lease signing properly, nor did she get approval from the owners corporation etc but why should i have to move or be without my dog??

       It feels very unfair 🙁  can anyone help or point me in the direction of legal advice? . Thanks

    Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 25 total)
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    • #18211
      scotlandx
      Strataguru

        There are two strands/relationships that run alongside each other in this situation:

         

        1. your lease with the owner of the property

        2. the by-laws that govern what the residents of the strata can do, including the keeping of animals.  Those by-laws bind the owners and as a consequence anyone to whom they lease the property (although this can get tricky)

         

        As far as the owner is concerned, they can’t agree in a lease to allow you to do something such as keeping an animal, unless it is permissible under the by-laws. So for example if the by-laws ban animals outright, then the owner can’t lease the property to you and say animals are ok, because the by-laws take precedence.  In answer to one of your questions, no the lease does not override the by-laws.

        However we don’t know what the by-laws say – they may ban animals, allow animals, or say that animals can’t be kept without written permission and that permission cannot be unreasonably withheld.  The last option is the most common.  It is pretty easy to find out what the by-laws are, if you know who the strata manager is, ask them for a copy, although the owner should have given you a copy when you moved in.  Or ask the agent, and remind them of their obligations to give them to you under the law.

        If the by-laws don’t ban animals outright, then you have the option of pursuing the matter further.  Where the by-law provides for written permission the usual process is that the landlord should seek permission from the OC for the animal to be kept by the tenant.  From what you say the landlord doesn’t sound very helpful and may not want to do that if it is an option.  

        In your case it doesn’t matter if the landlord is now saying they didn’t approve the clause in the lease, if it is in the lease and that has been signed, then it is a term of the lease.  I agree with you that it does seem unfair that you have been mucked around, where you have acted in good faith.  

        None of this is legal advice, but you could argue that they have breached a term of the lease, or represented you could do something that you are not allowed to do, and therefore you want to terminate it.  I suggest your best option is to go here:

        https://www.tenants.org.au/tenants-rights-factsheets

        and here

        https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Tenants_and_home_owners/Renting_a_home.html

        for further advice.

        Good luck!

        #18230
        KEB

          thanks strata guru. I have since figured out that the by laws are in fact permissable of pets upon approval. …where it states also that permission cannot be unreasonably withheld.

          what would unreasonablereasonable be ?? who decides this?!

          I recieved a letter from the real estate that said something like:” The OC are within their rights to refuse permission so long as not deemed to be unreasonable. Taking into the close proximity of the neighbouring flats, their right to quiet enjoyment of and use of the shared grass area and the affect that having a dog present has on their habitation of the premises in which they reside, grounds for refusal of permission to keep the dog at the property are not deemed unreasonable.”

           

          This has been sent to me even thought there is no dog here and has not been a dog present at all yet. Our “close proximity” is infact that we are a detached building on our own with a 6 ft gate at the entrance of the property and a smaller gate at the balcony leading onto the common area. The dog would not be kept on the common area at all. If she were on common property I would be with her at all times.

          Im assuming reaonable would mean she is not kept on common property, she is not noisey, I clean up after her , I share with the neighbours her 3 references from past neighbours stating her lovely temperament especially with children and acknowledge any other concerns they may have with a dog etc. basically they would hardly notice her presence.

          How and who do i argue my point with?

          #18233
          Jimmy-T
          Keymaster

            The landlord can’t change their mind about omething tht’s in the lease – whther or not they gave the agent their approval.  the agent is working on their behalf and you have to be able to trust what they say and do.

            It seems you may have missed out a critical step in this process which is to apply for permission from the Executive Committee to have the dog there. 

            If they refuse unreasonably, what you can do next is apply to Fair Trading for mediation and, if the result isn’t satisfactory, take the case to the CTTT for a ruling (The CTTT won’t hear the case unless mediation has been attempted.)

            You will find the process explained – with links to the required forms – HERE. Yours is option 2 – a CTTT order.  Although you aren’t seeking a penalty, you do want a ruling on the EC’s interpretation of “unreasonable” and only the CTTT can give you that.

            The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
            #18234
            kiwipaul
            Flatchatter

              My view is that so long as you agree to reasonable conditions you should be allowed to keep a pet within the complex. Typical conditions are:

              1) Must not be allowed to enter common property (or other lots (cats)) except under control of owner (some adjudicators have ruled animals must be carried across or transported in a vehicle across common property) but I consider a leash is adequate.

              2) Must not disturb other resident by causing a noise (Barking) or smell.

              3) Must not attack of injure native wildlife.

              If you agreed too and complied with these condition the strata would have little hope of banning your pet.

              #18235
              Kangaroo
              Flatchatter

                Ah, “unreasonably” and “occasionally”.

                Words that are music to lawyers’ wallets.

                First, get yourself a printed copy of the By-Laws and read them. Your landlord is obliged to provide it.

                I think KEB only has three options:

                1) Get rid of the dog and sue the landlord+agent for “loss of consortium” (well, same sort of concept without the sex) based on misrepresentation as evidenced by the written extra clause in the lease.

                2) Move out and sue the landlord+agent for damages (moving costs) based on misrepresentation as evidenced by the written extra clause in the lease.

                3) Write to the OC requesting permission to keep the dog on the lot. Assuming that the relevant By-Law for your scheme is not a “blanket ban” (you have indicated that it’s not), most By-Laws use the phrase “owner or occupier”, so tenants can apply, not just owners. The initial response will come from the EC or SM. If it is unfavourable, use the leverage of “misrepresentation” on the landlord to get her to submit a motion to the next GM (and to garner support for that to be called soon) that written permission be granted to keep the dog on the lot. It’s the OC’s permission which is required, their decision overrides the EC/SM and you may find more pet-lovers there. If that is unfavourable, you’ll have to go to the CTTT for a ruling on whether the refusal was “unreasonable”. But, by then your lease will be up.

                That’s the end of the advice, now the rant.

                The landlord misrepresented the situation. The leasing agent misrepresented the situation. The leasing agent breached the Act by failing to supply a copy of the By-Laws. The tenant failed due diligence by not reading the written By-Laws prior to signing the lease.

                Why is sorting out this mess the OC’s job?

                Particularly for tenants who may be on a 6 or 12 month lease.

                Calling meetings, writing minutes, appearing at the CTTT to justify their position, appearing again at the CTTT to seek an order for removal of unauthorised pets, etc, etc.

                EC members are people too! And entitled to the quiet enjoyment of their lot. I’m not referring to barking, I’m referring to other residents dumping their self-inflicted problems in their lap.

                BTW, fear of noise, smell, soilage and wandering are not the only reasons some schemes ban pets. What if there are other residents with allergies? What about other owners who bought into a scheme because it was pet-free by By-Law? How do you quantify their loss?

                Question – Why would anyone ban blankets anyway? Joke folks!

                #18237
                Jimmy-T
                Keymaster

                  Let’s just lay out a few facts, to answer the question asked in the original posting, the lease does NOT over-ride by-laws – if anything it’s the other way round.  Landlords can’t just make up their own rules that allow their tenants to do things other residents can’t.

                  Once you have the permission of the landlord, you still have to get the permission of the Executive Committee and that has to be based on the by-laws that operate in that strata scheme (which may be different from other by-laws elsewhere).

                  If you have permission in writing or, at the very least, the rental agent admits that they did give you permission, then you are well placed.

                  The landlord has employed the rental agent to act on their behalf.  If the agent has done something the landlord didn’t want, then that’s something they need to sort out between themselves – it has nothing to do with you.

                  Have a look at Page 9 of the standard residential tenancy – it has has a couple of clauses related to the keeping of animals and any specific conditions that apply. By the way, your landlord/agent was breaking the law by not providing you with a copy of the by-laws and could be fined for not doing so.

                  Most by-laws that allow pets, stipulate that tenants must have their landlord’s permission, first and foremost. Then the Executive Committee decides whether or not it will give permission for the pet.

                  If the by-law is basically the ‘can’t unreasonably refuse permission …’ model and you have the permission of the landlord or agent IN WRITING then you have a very strong case if the dog is well-behaved.

                  One owner’s complaint is not sufficient reason to make refusal ‘reasonable’ – even if they are lawyers.  Some (but not all) lawyers who live in strata should be required to wear tee-shirts with “LAWYER” on the front, to save them having to say “listen, I’m a lawyer …” when they start bullying their neighbours.  Most lawyers who aren’t strata specialists know diddly about the intricacies of strata law.

                  Also, residents and Owners Corps have legal protection against nuisance animals regardless of whether or not they have permission.

                  The strata Act clearly states animals can be ordered out of strata schemes even when they comply with the by-laws (see Section 151 below).  For instance, a cat might be quiet, clean and never stray on to common property – but it’s very presence nearby might cause serious medical problems for someone who has an allergy. People take precedence over pets and medical conditions trump personal preferences.

                  I mention that clause in the Act because Executive Committees are often highly ignorant of their own by-laws, and even less informed about the protections they have under the strata Act.  As a result, they tend to react – usually overreact –  by jerk of knee. 

                  All that said, I don’t think anybody needs to be threatening anyone else with court action if it can be avoided. This could be resolved by mediation at Fair Trading but it seems to me the first step is to get the landlord or their agent to concede that the dog was allowed (the length of stay is irrelevant unless you are assuming it will be a nuisance).

                  If you get permission in writing (or already have it), apply to the Executive Committee for their permission under your strata scheme’s by-laws. Someone has written here that it’s up to the landlord to make that application – I don’t think that is the case since it’s very hard for the landlord to stipulate the nature of the animal concerned.

                  You get the permission, then you apply to the EC. Your mistake with ‘m’learned friend’ next door may be that you hadn’t applied for permission from the EC before you introduced the dog. 

                  If the landlord refuses to give permission, and you believe they have misled you, you can apply to Fair Trading for mediation and a possible CTTT order on those grounds – although it’s hard to prove if both the landlord and agent say permission wasn’t given and you have nothing in writing, or a witness who will testify to the fact. 

                  Verbal agreements, especially in rentals schemes, are as the late, great Sam Goldwyn said, “not worth the paper they’re written on.”

                   

                  151   Order relating to animal kept in accordance with by-laws

                  (1)  An Adjudicator may make one of the following orders if the Adjudicator considers that an animal kept on a lot or the common property in accordance with the by-laws causes a nuisance or hazard to the owner or an occupier of another lot or unreasonably interferes with the use and enjoyment of another lot or of the common property:

                  (a)  an order that the person keeping the animal cause the animal to be removed from the parcel within a specified time, and to be kept away from the parcel,

                  (b)  an order that the person keeping the animal take, within a time specified in the order, such action so specified as, in the opinion of the Adjudicator, will terminate the nuisance, hazard or unreasonable interference.

                  (2)  An application for an order under this section may be made only by an owners corporation, lessor of a leasehold strata scheme, strata managing agent, an owner, any person having an estate or interest in a lot or an occupier of a lot.

                  The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                  #18240
                  scotlandx
                  Strataguru

                    It is in the lease, the OP said there is a specific clause in the lease saying that the dog could stay on occasion.  I thought that was what the OP wanted, to have the dog there occasionally.  

                     

                    The landlord has backtracked because the neighbour has complained, but if it is in writing they can’t.

                     

                    The missing piece is that no-one has asked the EC’s permission.  So go ahead and ask, you have the landlord’s ok.  In our building the landlord always does it because they are the owner, but perhaps it might be easier here if the tenant does.

                    #18241
                    Jimmy-T
                    Keymaster


                      @scotlandx
                      said:
                      In our building the landlord always does it because they are the owner, but perhaps it might be easier here if the tenant does.

                      Actually, I can now see how that could work, since the landlord can only seek permission for a pet that is going to live there under the terms of the by-laws.  They could even reasonably ask for blanket approval for their unit under those terms.  In some schemes (older ones, especially),  ECs and strata managers refuse to have anything to do with the tenants and only deal with owners (even though tenants are now ‘interested parties’ under strata law). 

                      However, I also know of plenty of landlords who couldn’t be bothered to apply for permission for a pet on their tenants’ behalf.

                      CORRECTION:

                      Re, the clause being in the lease, I had been misreading the original post and have edited my comments to avoid confusion for anyone coming to this discussion late.  Apologies for any confusion I may have caused.  However I’ll leave my comments about verbal agreements in the other response as they have a general application. The landlord can’t change the terms of the lease without the tenant’s approval or until the lease is renewed (or not).

                      The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                      #18358
                      KEB

                        oh thanks everyone, this is such a draining procedure!

                        the current update is:

                        i emailed the owners corporation to request permission. ( the OC is made up of my landlord and the 1 x neighboursowners that complained. this is a very small block of 3 units so the neighbours are the only ones i need approval from)…so far ive recieved no reply.

                        however my landlord emailed me , ignored my request and stated that they, the OC have decided to amend the strata laws to rule out dogs completely!! (adopting option c) OMG! where do i stand now??

                        if i signed the lease under one set of laws can they really change them to affect me whilst under this lease?

                        what is wrong with these poeple??!!

                         

                        what will happen if i just decide to ignore them all and keep my dog here?? can i be evicted? or asked to leave? im sure i will recieve a notice to comply or something but the fair trading office said to pass on any such letters to the landlord as she is the one in breach.

                         i know you all think i should just move, but its sooo ahrd to find pet friendly affordable properties here in sydney. plus the time and effort it takes to move etc. my dog is soo well behaved and has references from all the past neighbours…its such a simple request! argh! 

                        #18363
                        ccbaxter
                        Flatchatter

                          KEB, in your most recent post (I think… I’m not liking what I think is the ‘pin a post to the top’ thing) I refer you to the ‘Roos rant in the 6/4 post, one of the best things I’ve read in Flat Chat. Take it away Roo:

                          “Why is sorting out this mess the OC’s job?

                          “Particularly for tenants who may be on a 6 or 12 month lease.

                          “Calling meetings, writing minutes, appearing at the CTTT to justify their position, appearing again at the CTTT to seek an order for removal of unauthorised pets, etc, etc.

                          “EC members are people too! And entitled to the quiet enjoyment of their lot. I’m not referring to barking, I’m referring to other residents dumping their self-inflicted problems in their lap.

                          “BTW, fear of noise, smell, soilage and wandering are not the only reasons some schemes ban pets. What if there are other residents with allergies? What about other owners who bought into a scheme because it was pet-free by By-Law? How do you quantify their loss?

                          Thanks for telling it like it is, Roo!

                          #18366
                          Jimmy-T
                          Keymaster

                            Yes … but …
                            There was no ban on pets in this case until one arrived and the landlord had given her approval for the dog.
                            How about people who take on positions of authority in buildings and don’t bother to readtheir own by-laws, let alone undertake ‘basic training’ through the SCA’s online EC members course?
                            For every owner and tenant who dumps their “self-inflicted” problems on ECs, there’s an EC member who just wants to protect their own interests without having any regard to the responsibilities they have undertaken.
                            (Point taken on the “pinned” posts, though – I shall unpin whenever I can remember where they are)

                            The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                            #18367
                            ccbaxter
                            Flatchatter

                              Of course you’re quite right JimmyT.

                              And there’s another side to it. We recently got ourselves a brand new pet by-law about that’s so fluffy, friendly, conversational and easy-going it’s very hard to understand. (Hello Simone.) I don’t think anyone can be bothered reading it. Consequently we’ve become known as a ‘pet friendly’ building and real estate agents are letting places to dog and cat owners left right and centre without mentioning you DO actually need to ask for and be granted permission in writing. Also existing pets are supposed to have been documented.

                              So let me sign-off by referencing this other bit of ‘gold’ from one of Roo’s posts:

                              Ah, “unreasonably” and “occasionally”.

                              Words that are music to lawyers’ wallets.

                              #18370
                              Jimmy-T
                              Keymaster

                                CC Baxter said

                                Ah, “unreasonably” and “occasionally”. Words that are music to lawyers’ wallets.

                                True, but they don’t say ka-ching to m’learned friends quite as loudly as “It’s a matter of principle …”

                                The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                                #18371
                                Kangaroo
                                Flatchatter

                                  OK, I’ve had a few whiskies, so let’s get started.

                                  JT …

                                  “There was no ban on pets”, but there was a ban on pets “arriving” without written permission (in the form of a By-Law).

                                  KEB …

                                  I’m still not sure whether you want the dog to visit “occasionally” as stated in your original post, or to stay permanently, which is the impression I get from your later posts.

                                  If there are 3 units, there are 3 members of the OC, not the 2 you state.

                                  The EC may well be comprised of 2 members.

                                  Permission has to come from the OC, not the landlord, not the SM, not the EC (unless the OC choose not to override their decision).

                                  You have the landlord over a barrel with the extra clause written into the lease (but that’s not sufficient permission).

                                  What about the 3rd owner? Have you talked to them?

                                  Has the OC already held an EGM to decide to amend the By-Law, or is that still in the future? It may not pass.

                                  You can’t be evicted by the landlord, because you haven’t breached the lease (with its extra clause).

                                  You can’t be evicted by the OC. Ever.

                                  The OC can take you to the CTTT for breaching a By-Law, either the old one requring permission, or the new one banning pets altogether.

                                  Or you could take the OC to the CTTT, on the grounds of “unreasonable” refusal, or that they changed the By-Laws during your tenancy.

                                  How long is your lease?

                                  CCB …

                                  Yes, that’s one disadvantage of being “pet friendly”. Give a Leasing Agent 2.54 cm, and they’ll take 1.609344 kilometres. As JT says elsewhere, they are “paragons” of something or other. I think “paragon” is a  term for a geometric figure which has at least two faces.

                                  Anyways, the Strata Review will probably solve all our problems. I understand they’re going to make pets compulsory. And they’ll probably ban smoking on balconies, so you’ll have to do it inside with the kids. Which will only leave one problem, pets who smoke, like that monkey on Big Bang.

                                  #18374
                                  Jimmy-T
                                  Keymaster

                                    @Kangaroo said:
                                    OK, I’ve had a few whiskies, so let’s get started.

                                    JT …

                                    “There was no ban on pets”, but there was a ban on pets “arriving” without written permission (in the form of a By-Law).

                                    The by-law on pets that was in place says that pets are not allowed except with with the permission of the Owners Corp which must not be unreasonably refused.  It doesn’t say ‘prior permission’ and Keb had permission of the landlord so she would have reasonably assumed she was on safe ground.

                                    Permission has to come from the OC, not the landlord, not the SM, not the EC (unless the OC choose not to override their decision).

                                    The EC IS the Owners Corp in decisions such as this although, you are right, their decisions can be countermanded by a general meeting of the Owners Corp. This is what the Strata Act says:

                                    21 Executive committee’s decisions to be decisions of owners corporation

                                    (1) A decision of an executive committee is taken to be the decision of the owners corporation, subject to subsection (4).

                                    It does, however, go on to list the exceptions to this rule, of which this is not one.

                                    The OC can take you to the CTTT for breaching a By-Law, either the old one requring permission, or the new one banning pets altogether.

                                    Or you could take the OC to the CTTT, on the grounds of “unreasonable” refusal, or that they changed the By-Laws during your tenancy.

                                    My advice would be to tough it out – let them make all the running  and defy them to provide evidence that the dog is a nuisance and this is anything less than unreasonable persecution because they didn’t read their own by-laws properly.

                                    And if they give you any trouble, threaten them with an AVO for harrassment – doesn’t look too good on a lawyer’s CV. 

                                    The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
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