Flat Chat Strata Forum Living in strata Current Page

  • Creator
    Topic
  • #11747
    Jimmy-T
    Keymaster

      We received a press release last week from a UK-based company called Airsorted. They are promising to make it easier for you to let out – sorry, “share” – your apartment on Airbnb without ever having to actually meet the allegedly lovely people you are sharing it with.

      They say they are “the world’s only true global management company for Airbnb” and claim they are “changing the way properties are being managed and hosted in Australia.”

      This may come as a surprise to local Airbnb boosters MadeComfy who’ve been doing this very successfully for a while, now.

      “After starting out in the UK, Airsorted is now in 18 cities across seven countries, including Australia,” it says here. “Airsorted was created to take away any issues for hosts renting out their home on Airbnb such as guest enquiries, cleaning and key exchanges.”

      In other words, they are going to make the commercialisation of your residential apartment as efficient as possible and they’ve come all the way from England to show us how to do it properly.

      “Airsorted take the hassle away from people trying to host their property on Airbnb, by literally doing everything for them,” they say.  Does that include making amends to seriously pissed off neighbours who thought they were buying or renting a home? No?  OK, just asking …

      The rest of the press release is just more blah about how fantastic Airbnb is, how much money you can make from it and how easy these guys make it for you.

      Of course, first you’ll have to turf out those grubby residential tenants (with the help of our antiquated “no cause” rental termination laws) and get serious about making money from your investment.

      One of the services they offer – apart from tarting up your listing, cleaning your flat, making the beds and even fixing the lights and changing tap washers – is “24/7 Guest communications” which includes “screening of guests” and “24/7 guest support for check-in or any queries.”

      Well, ain’t that grand.  But, hang on, they don’t say if they offer the same 24/7 support to the strata schemes where they are placing these highly vetted travellers.

      I mean, there’s a number ‘guests’ can call when they’ve lost their keys.  But what about a number for neighbours to call when these fantastic people they have let into our building start leaving their garbage in the hallways, partying all night and throwing lit ciggies off the balcony.

      Do they give them a copy of the by-laws and make them read them when they turn up?  And do they throw them out when they start breaking the rules.

      In fact, do they do us the simple courtesy of saying “by the way, we are now managing flat 13 and if there are any problems, night or day, just call us”?

      Maybe they do, but I bet they bloody don’t.

      Airsorted aren’t the first company to move in on the lucrative “sharing” economy – sharing our common property with their paying guests – and they won’t be the last.

      Jon Faine the radio host in Melbourne once famously called Airbnb “parasites and predators”, which reminds me of that old rhyme (which I will probably misquote):

      Big fleas have little fleas
      Upon their backs to bite ’em
      And little fleas have littler fleas
      And so, ad infinitum

       

       

      The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
    Viewing 11 replies - 1 through 11 (of 11 total)
    • Author
      Replies
    • #29890
      Millie
      Flatchatter

        The bit about ‘vetting’ ‘guests’ is absolute crock.  Here’s a Facebook quote from a well-know Sydney Airbnb ‘host’ who has about eight listings for her pad, including one for a tent and one advertising her ‘home’ as an ‘Events’ space:  

        “Here’s something that should raise concern in us all.  [BTW, names changed to protect guest’s privacy.  Yes, I know, how ironic…]

        I just received an IB (instant booking) for today and tomorrow for two people. It’s for one of my private rooms, not the entire place listing.

        On the guest’s profile she calls herself Ruby Be, apparently because she hosts a property in Ruby Beach.  On her messages she signs off as Alicia.

        On the itinerary it gives her name as Ruby Be.

        I rant Airbnb to ask why the guest’s name wasn’t on the itinerary and to request the guest’s actual, legal name.

        They refused to tell me.  When I pushed back they said that they had no obligation to tell me and that I no (sic) right to be told.

        Extraordinary. Imagine what the press could do with this litle tidbit? So what happens if there’s cause to call the police or an ambulance? ‘I’m sorry officer/paramedic, but I don’t know the name of this person staying in my house’.”

        Gotta love short-term rentals hey?  

        All NSW Government MPs know exactly what’s going on as far as our Residential Title Deeds etc are concerned.  If they don’t, it means their Staffers are blocking information going to the actual MP.  

        We purchased homes in R2 and R4 Residential Zones and Class 2 Residential Strata buildings.  We’re being robbed of our rights as Residential property owners.  In Strata, think one calls it “Fraud on the Minority”.

        #29902
        Toretti
        Flatchatter

          Airbnb withholding consumer identity makes a mockery of their touted transparency and trust ‘ethos’, what is the point of their verification and ID system if they still permit this practice? It shows just how little regard they actually have their ‘host/provider’. They just want to clip the ticket and get that booking, regardless. 

          In any event, how can parties form a contract if their identities are unknown – isn’t this elementary contract law? I doubt I could, as a matter of law, even grant a ‘right to occupy’ to an unknown party. Try that in a hotel, and see how far you get.

          It makes a mockery of any Code of Conduct, and By Laws, what are they…notification of who is in occupation is rendered meaningless and who has the keys – Donald Duck?

          This is the kind of thing that will make agencies like MadeComfy, Airsorted   more attractive to hosts. Its puts a third party between them and the consumer, so they can shift liability and not bother with those pesky ‘guests’.

          Is this the practice of other operators like Booking.com etc.

          What a mess.

          Join OCN.

          #29915
          Millie
          Flatchatter

            In London, Tubes and Busses are currently absolutely awash with advertising for Airbnb Management Agents  like Airsorted  and Hostmaker.  Obviously there is no limit to what can and is being spent on the commercialisation of housing.

            OCN were the first ones to suggest that a mere strata by-law should override the Certificates of Classification (National Construction Codes) and the Determination of Development Application on Residential Strata buildings.  Our Politicians, Airbnb & Mob have of course seized upon this.

            Good luck all:  We are now left in a permanent state of war with the conversion to (and costs of) living a ghost-hotel a mere General Meeting away.

            #29916
            Jimmy-T
            Keymaster
            Chat-starter

              @Millie said:
              OCN were the first ones to suggest that a mere strata by-law should override the Certificates of Classification (National Construction Codes) and the Determination of Development Application on Residential Strata buildings.  Our Politicians, Airbnb & Mob have of course seized upon this.

              Perhaps they have seized on the “all or nothing” approach by some campaigners to divide the anti-Airbnb lobby. Blaming OCN for not stopping Airbnb completely is like blaming Churchill for not defeating the USSR as well as the Nazis.

              Airbnb is sweeping through Australia like a virus. NSW has achieved the very best outcome of all the states.  Had it not been for OCN, we would probably be looking at the same situation as Melbourne where there are no restrictions and Airbnb listings have gone through the roof.  The model Airbnb wanted us to have – their deal in Tasmania – has led to the government paying landlords to put their properties back in the residential market.

              This is a political question that required a political answer.  It’s all very well to quote the law and insist that things should be done a certain way, but when your political leaders and local councils can’t wait to take the Airbnb dollar – and are scared of their campaigning power, black letter legal arguments count for nothing.

              Queensland will be next to go down, even though its laws are absolutely unequivocal – Class 2 apartment blocks are “not for tourism”.  But they are being bulldozed too, with the supine local Press there toeing the line by presenting the people who want to abide by the law as obstructive and unfair.

              The situation in your building is unique in that you have government MPs openly flouting planning laws.  Everybody now knows this.  Sydney City knows it.  The suddenly silent Labour Party knows it.  The deeply disappointing “no limits” Minister Kean certainly knows it.  But nobody wants to do anything because they are more interested in political expediency than legal issues.

              In your shoes, rather than sniping at the one group that has stopped Airbnb in a way that no other has anywhere in Australia, you could perhaps be trying to build on that small but significant victory.

              Personally I am amazed that no one has persuaded the Ombudsman’s office to do their job and order City of Sydney to do theirs. 

              In Queensland, the Ombudsman ordered Brisbane City Council to enforce their planning regulations. With a clear-cut case like yours, I assume you tried that avenue.  Why didn’t it work?

              The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
              #29917
              Millie
              Flatchatter

                All avenues have been pursued.  All avenues continue to be pursued.

                Why hasn’t it worked?  One could volunteer a response.

                NSW has legislation – excellent legislation – which lays out exactly how this situation can and has been handled to date.  We are also endowed with a long line of excellent case law, courtesy of the NSW Land and Environment Court.

                Three hours ago correspondence was sent to NSW Ministers in relation to the Environmental Planning and Assessment Regulation 2000.  This NSW legislation is clear, plus reference was made to the fact that it very much appeared to have built upon as the result of Coroner’s Inquiries and Inquests.  Two hour ago that correspondence was followed up with details of another Coroner’s report dated yesterday, which had just come to hand, which made specific reference to the Act  mentioned above.  Minister Matt Kean and his Department of Innovation and Better Regulation have been sent a clear message yesterday by the Coroner.

                All this has just been passed through to a forum currently underway in Byron – NSW Residents there can check with Councillors and local campaigners when their session today finishes.  Professor Nicole Gurran from Sydney University is helping them with data and also presenting at the forum.

                Residents of NSW should feel a sense of relief that our legislation is so excellent.  The word is “should”.  Unfortunately our Legislators are ignorant of or deliberately choosing to ignore all legislation.

                The position taken by ‘Millie’ and others with regards to short-term holiday rentals always refers back to legislation and the basis upon which Residents have purchased strata or property in R2 or R4 residential zones.  The position is based on legislation and consistent with that taken by the Accommodation Association of Australia.  

                By way of contrast, Tourism Accommodation Australia’s position is (surprisingly) different; they are in partnership with Stayz/Expedia.  TAA is connected with the Australian Hotels Association (AHA), “the national voice of Australia’s hotel and liquor industry”.

                By way of advice, ARAMA is hooking Expedia into big battle against any limits whatsoever on short-term letting in NSW.

                Members of the NSW Parliament never let up on how valuable short-term rentals are to our State Economy.  Minister Matt Kean refers repeatedly and only to a report volunteered by Airbnb.  State Parliament has written that they have not sought any legal advice…and they’re relying on figures from Airbnb? 

                And has anyone noted which MPs chose to abstain from voting on the Fair Trading Amendment Bill and indeed which MPs (with conflicts of interest) did indeed vote?

                Our Members of Parliament must be called out on all the legislation they are ignoring, plus the fact that – particularly those in Strata – hold title deeds on residential property, plus there are Determination of Develoment Applications, which clearly state that our strata properties are for “permanent residential accommodation only and not for the purposes of a hotel, motel, serviced apartments tourist accommodation or the like.

                #29918
                Jimmy-T
                Keymaster
                Chat-starter

                  @Millie said:
                  All avenues have been pursued.  All avenues continue to be pursued.

                  So what was the response from the Ombudsman to allegations that the City of Sydney and other councils weren’t doing their job?

                  The position taken by ‘Millie’ and others with regards to short-term holiday rentals always refers back to legislation and the basis upon which Residents have purchased strata or property in R2 or R4 residential zones.  The position is based on legislation and consistent with that taken by the Accommodation Association of Australia.  

                  Fine – but it has achieved nothing in the big picture.  MPs and councillors have decided the laws are inconvenient and will change them.  Meanwhile, they will use the fact that they intend to change them as a reason for not enforcing them.

                  By way of contrast, Tourism Accommodation Australia’s position is (surprisingly) different; they are in partnership with Stayz/Expedia.  TAA is connected with the Australian Hotels Association (AHA), “the national voice of Australia’s hotel and liquor industry”.

                  I thought they had gone their separate ways a few months after they realised their aims were irreconcilably different.

                  By way of advice, ARAMA is hooking Expedia into big battle against any limits whatsoever on short-term letting in NSW.

                  No surprise there.  ARAMA has a much longer record in turning apartment blocks into holiday hotels than Airbnb.  Expedia just wants a foothold in the local market.

                  Members of the NSW Parliament never let up on how valuable short-term rentals are to our State Economy.  Minister Matt Kean refers repeatedly and only to a report volunteered by Airbnb.  State Parliament has written that they have not sought any legal advice…and they’re relying on figures from Airbnb? 

                  True.  So why do you imagine they aren’t interested in enforcing planning laws as they stand?  OCN didn’t create this situation – they dealt with it in an astonishingly effective way.  Again, we got the best outcome of any state in Australia.

                  And has anyone noted which MPs chose to abstain from voting on the Fair Trading Amendment Bill and indeed which MPs (with conflicts of interest) did indeed vote?

                  Go ahead – tell us.  I have no idea.  But MPs not voting isn’t always a sign that they don’t care – it’s often sending a message to their Party that they don’t have their wholehearted support.   

                  Our Members of Parliament must be called out on all the legislation they are ignoring, plus the fact that – particularly those in Strata – hold title deeds on residential property, plus there are Determination of Development Applications, which clearly state that our strata properties are for “permanent residential accommodation only and not for the purposes of a hotel, motel, serviced apartments tourist accommodation or the like.  

                  You should never let “perfect” be the enemy of “good”. What you want – to turn back the clock to the black letter of planning laws – is unachievable IMHO.  Our Minister for Disappointment was within hours of announcing a no-limits allowance for short-term lets when he was pulled up by politicians in his own party who threatened a revolt if he didn’t include the strata by-laws provision promoted by OCN.

                  Think about it.  Only days before, his department was telling anyone daft enough to listen that by-laws restricting short-term lets would be invalid.  Now they’re to be the cornerstone of the proposed short-term letting legislation.

                  Our biggest battle right now is not to demand that the old laws be kept and enforced – that just won’t fly – but to ensure  the new ones aren’t undermined, diluted and eroded by Airbnb, Stayz and all their parasitic partners.

                  You are absolutely right about how we have been deprived of some of the rights we thought we’d bought with our properties.  However, you can send all the letters you want, but there are none so blind as those who will not see.

                  And just to be clear, the OCN isn’t your enemy just because they’re not standing on your barricade fighting your fight. 

                  And while what they have achieved isn’t going to help you in your situation – where a substantial majority of owners will vote against any by-laws – it offers hope to tens of thousands of us whose homes were about to be opened to unlimited numbers of tourists, despite the strong feelings of a majority of owners.

                  The war isn’t won yet.  You can bet that the STHL parasites will be working their butts off, trying to gee up the 25 percent votes needed to block the by-laws proposed for some of our key buildings.

                  Look out for a Fair Trading demand that all existing by-laws have to be put to another vote at a future AGM. They love Airbnb and will do whatever it takes to make life easier for them.

                  These are battles we should be fighting shoulder to shoulder and the OCN has proved they are the best people to lead the charge.

                  The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                  #29484
                  Millie
                  Flatchatter

                    Hi JimmyT

                    From recent correspondence you will understand that access to all files isn’t possible at present.  The NSW Ombudsman will again be approached.  Will keep you abreast of news.

                    Suggestion:

                    NSW Office of Local Government, Manager, Policy, writes: “Finally, I would like to highlight that the Local Government Act 1993 (the Act) does not give the Minister for Local Government or OLG wide-ranging powers to intervene in the affairs of individual councils. Under the Act, councils are largely independent and self-governing bodies with discretions, rights and powers conferred by law. They are primarily accountable to their electors for their actions.”

                    The NSW Minister for Local Government: is also the Minister responsible for NSW National Parks, who seem to have ‘partnered’ with Booking.com and are renting short-term let properties.  No word as to whether or not these National Parks properties meet any statutory requirements.  And can’t see where this, or DestinationNSW’s massive-scale facilitation of short-term rentals has been declared anywhere.  Ministers, having sought this information from us, do not respond when presented with thousands of examples.

                    Byron Shire Council:  Seems keen to prosecute those involved in short-term rentals.  They should be encouraged and helped?  More NSW case law required.

                    Tourism Accommodation Australia:  Not aware of any notification, which followed on from their 05 April 2017 “world-first agreement” with Stayz/Expedia.  They do not respond to correspondence.

                    ARAMA/Expedia:  you are correct.

                    MPs voting:  Members with connections to/record of short-term rentals voted on the recent ‘Bill’.  And you are correct; some MPs sought pairs and did not vote. 

                    A letter was sent to all NSW State MPs prior to the vote on Matthew Kean’s Fair Trading Bill passing the lower house.  The contents relied heavily on the San Francisco model, which is now legislated. Happy to share this with you. 

                    The MPs who did vote have set aside this correspondence and voted through a Bill which contained zero detail.  One MP has reportedly admitted to this.

                    As previously mentioned, our approach to the NSW Parliament is based on current legislation across Federal, State, Local Government matters plus Land and Environment Court case law, Residential Title Deeds, plus the legislation imposed upon and met by Bed and Breakfast/Motel/Hotel and other accommodation providers.

                    Owners Corporation Network:  We have failed to secure any meeting with NSW State Ministers. Opposition MPs, including shadow Ministers, have advised that they have been told to pay no attention to us (and our cohort of 1,060 signatories plus their families).

                    The OCN is not responding to correspondence.  Some OCN Members are waiting to see how (and if) their Executive will respond.

                    The OCN pulled support for a ‘Day of Action on Short-Term Renting’ that was registered with the NSW State Police.  Might they themselves now consider and implement such a demonstration? Support would be considered to such a move.

                    Will the OCN consider the NSW Coroner’s Report and recommendations, issued last Friday?  There is no way that short-term ‘licenses to occupy’ can meet the recommendations which the Coroner has put to Minister Matthew Kean and ‘Innovation and Better Regulation’.

                    Will the OCN also follow through on another NSW Coroner’s Report?  It concerns the death of a four-year-old boy in a house fire at Anglers Reach near Adaminaby.   The family was staying in a “holiday home…destroyed in the fire that killed a young boy and badly injured his mother”.  The tragic death of that child and the report from the NSW Police was held in Queanbeyan Court. The Court can be contacted via: local-court-queanbeyan@justice.nsw.gov.au.  Was the property or any of the properties reportedly used by extended family members a NSW National Parks property?

                    Re your comment:  “Look out for a Fair Trading demand that all existing by-laws have to be put to another vote at a future AGM. They love Airbnb and will do whatever it takes to make life easier for them.”  You are correct.  Hence our insistence that a strata by-law – the lowest level of governance – not be the determining factor when it comes to our homes and communities.

                    Directly linked to the OCN’s position, will it consider a Submission (by one of its former Board Members) that was put to Parliament; the Submission is now marked “Confidential” and it contains a forensic accounting report showing exactly what it costs members of an Owners Corporations when short-term rentals are present in a building.  Where buildings see DAs/Certificates of Classification/Court Orders/NCAT Orders etc all thrown away and the building overrun with short-term rentals, would the OCN considered this as “Fraud on the Minority”? 

                    Acknowledging that no face-to-face contact with the OCN has been possible since their last-minute attendance at a meeting on 13 December 2016, which I put together and to which you also received an invitation.

                    Again, will be happy to share with you the correspondence sent to Parliament, in which we maintain our position and openly disclose that it is based heavily on that of the City of San Francisco’s.

                      

                    #29922
                    Jimmy-T
                    Keymaster
                    Chat-starter

                      I’m going to say this for the last time – you are spending more time criticising the only owners’ group that has had any result in the battle to halt unlimited STHLs than you are in criticising the government or the online holiday letting industry.

                      Is it really that smart to criticise a group that has the same fundamental aims as you – limiting the spread of short-term letting in residential buildings –  because they don’t favour exactly the same approach as you do?

                      The holiday letting lobby and the the politicians are rubbing their hands with glee at all this.  They can dismiss your group as outliers and extremists (and, trust me, in private they do) while they can claim with a degree of justification that OCN don’t even have the support of all the apartment owners.

                      United we stand, divided we fall.  We are falling but, thanks partly to the efforts of the OCN and My Strata My Choice, not as fast nor as far as we might have been.

                      The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                      #29937
                      Millie
                      Flatchatter

                        The propriety rights of owners of existing residential properties must be respected by the NSW Government.

                        In Residential Zones where short term tourist accommodation is not currently permitted and/or where Development Consents already prohibit short term rentals, the NSW Government should not remove the legal rights of owners.

                        Refer to NSW case law.

                        #29946
                        Jimmy-T
                        Keymaster
                        Chat-starter

                          @Millie said:
                          The propriety rights of owners of existing residential properties must be respected by the NSW Government.

                          In Residential Zones where short term tourist accommodation is not currently permitted and/or where Development Consents already prohibit short term rentals, the NSW Government should not remove the legal rights of owners.

                          Refer to NSW case law.  

                          So who is going to sue the government? Unless you can persuade enough MPs to take up cudgels on your behalf, you are left with trying to establish a legal precedent at the High Court that says the proposed laws are unconstitutional. 

                          It’s theoretically possible but who’s going to pay for the lawyers – especially when you’ve got a $50bn  corporation on the other side? If you can’t get any joy from the Ombudsman, whose stated remit is to make sure councils enforce their laws, then you are bashing your head off a brick wall.

                          Repeating the findings of the Land & Environment Court and any other “case law” isn’t making any difference.

                          In a building where the majority of owners in my block wanted short-term letting, I would be filling my flat up with backpackers and renting somewhere really nice in a building where people give a damn.

                          The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                          #29951
                          eo@ocn
                          Flatchatter

                            What an interesting debate.  Thanks for the vote of support, Jimmy.  OCN has indeed been very busy on this issue, too busy to respond to critics who don’t understand or refuse to work with political processes.  OCN represents the interests of all strata owners, and therein lies a divergence of views. 

                            So OCN chose to call for the democratic right of each strata community to decide how their community is managed.  Just as they do with pets, parking, and strata renewal.  Once we secured that outcome, we could work on the detail which would include how an agreed change of use should be managed ie building requirements etc.  

                            The death penalty in the UK was abolished one crime at a time, starting with something like 99 crimes.  The short term letting arena will evolve, and OCN’s goal is to secure the best outcome possible for the majority of owners and residents.

                            While also securing better protections for off-the-plan purchasers, working towards improved building quality, and a more appealing strata living and investing experience.

                          Viewing 11 replies - 1 through 11 (of 11 total)
                          • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

                          Flat Chat Strata Forum Living in strata Current Page