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  • #9071

    Hello

    Sorry if this is a stupid question.

    I have four apartments in NSW; in Redfern, Liverpool, Newcastle and Roselands. They are managed by four different property managers and four different strata companies.

    3 of the apartments have battery operated smoke alarms, one is hardwired.

    I had signed up to Smoke Alarms Australia for three of the properties to be managed for fire safety compliance. Now I was about to sign up the fourth property to be managed as well and the property manager rang me to say that I am doubling up on the work that the strata do already. He said there is no reason to be paying for this extra maintenance.

    So, I have asked one of my other agents whether I am doubling up as well and she emailed the strata company who said they get fire safety compliance certificates annually. I asked whether this means I am meeting my legal requirements and the property manager said there is no reason to hire the external company.

    I then emailed the property manager of my Redfern property and she was quite certain that although strata do their fire safety compliance, they do not test the equipment in my apartment, this is not something the property manager can do because she does not have the proper equipment, and she recommended that I keep paying the external company to make sure I am compliant.

    I have no idea what I am supposed to do. I am more than happy to keep paying the external company for the four apartments if I have to, but not if I am already meeting my legal (and ethical) obligations to my tenants and other residents of the block.

    I do think it’s wise to be safe, but I am concerned of wasting money for no reason. I doubt whether strata would be checking my alarms on change of tenancy, which makes me wonder whether half of my property managers don’t know the laws, or are smoke alarm companies misleading me about my requirements?

    If my property managers advise me that I am legally compliant and I am found NOT to be, are they culpable for giving me the wrong information?

    Sometimes I wonder what is the point of a property manager if I have to double check everything. Some managers recommend landlord’s insurance and smoke alarm maintenance as soon as they sign me up, the others kind of assume I am on top of it. I honestly just wish I could trust that they are managing everything.

    What is required by me as a landlord and what responsibility does my property manager have to ensure that I am compliant?

    Why would property managers advise me in different ways on the matter? Do ALL apartment landlords need to hire these external companies or are some apartments body corporate/strata managing it comprehensively enough to be totally compliant?

    This is extremely confusing, but its $400 per year right now that I just don’t want to spend on something I don’t need to.

    What questions should I be asking of Strata/my property manager to ensure they are doing enough, to ensure that I am doing the right thing?

    thank you

    nobz

Viewing 9 replies - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)
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  • #19705
    scotlandx
    Strataguru

      It’s not a stupid question, it can be confusing.

      In 2006, legislation was introduced requiring that lots in older strata instal smoke alarms and keep them in good working order.  In summary, if you have installed a smoke alarm in your lot then you are responsible for it.  If the smoke alarm was installed at the time the building was constructed, then the owners corporation is responsible for repair and maintenance of it, except for changing the batteries in it, which is the lot owner’s responsibility.

      So the question for you in relation to your four properties is whether the smoke alarms were put in at the time of construction or whether they were put in by the then-owner.  The strata manager of each should be able to tell you, as if the OC is responsible they should have a maintenance program and checks for them as part of their Annual Fire Safety requirements, whereby you get a certificate every year.  This certificate has to be displayed on the notice board.  When those checks are done a notice is sent out to all owners/residents advising if access to lots is required for the purposes of the inspection/checks – your property manager would get that if there was one.

      In relation to the alarm that is hard-wired, I would guess that would be the OC’s responsibility?

      You are paying $100 a year each for someone to check if the fire alarms are working and to change a battery (presuming they are your responsibility – it is your call as to whether that is too much or not.  However, if you are paying property managers, you could expect them to provide you with advice that is pretty standard for their job, especially if they are recommending the fire compliance service (you have to wonder why).

      The Department of Planning put out a Fact Sheet setting out all the requirements and how they work.

      https://www.planning.nsw.gov.au/Portals/0/PolicyAndLegislation/EducationCampaigns/pdf/smoke_alarms_owners_factsheet1.pdf

       

      #19706
      Whale
      Flatchatter

        Nobzy – firstly, yours is not a stupid question but it’s rather reflective of a landlord who’s exercising due diligence over the management their properties; good on you!!

        In general terms, smoke alarms that were installed within units and elsewhere at the time of a building’s construction become the responsibility of the Owners Corporation upon registration of the strata plan, and those installed post registration in order to comply with the (smoke alarms) Regulation (2006) are the responsibility of the Lot Owner / landlord in terms of maintenance, replacement, and ensuring correct operation at the commencement of each new tenancy, and by the tenant thereafter only with regard to replacing batteries if fitted and to reporting operational faults.

        I used the word “generally” (above) because I’m aware that some Owners Corporations (O/C) include smoke alarms installed within Lots post Strata Registration in their annual Fire Safety Inspections. That complicates matters to some degree with regard to rental properties, as those annual Inspections don’t align with the inspections that Landlords / Property Managers are required to make at the commencement of each new tenancy.

        In your circumstances, I’d determine who owns the smoke alarms within each of your rental properties, and then continue with the private contractor to annually inspect yours ($ seem a bit high), permit your O/C to annually inspect theirs (which will likely the hard-wired unit), and have your Property Manager/s check all smoke alarms at the commencement of each new tenancy and note that on the Incoming Condition Report/s as they’re required to.

        I hope that’s clear….because it is a little complicated.

        (Just saw Scotty’s post, but no matter ’cause we’re on the same page).

        #19707

        Thank you both so much. I will continue with the inspections for the apartments where I installed the smoke alarms myself – this makes them my responsibility, if I have understood you correctly.

        Out of curiosity, what price do you think would be reasonable for these checks? I didn’t really shop around when I signed the company on, I took advice from the agent at the time.

         

        #19710
        Whale
        Flatchatter

          nobzy – YES it does, unless your O/C has magnanimously decided to inspect those on your behalf concurrently with its annual Fire Safety Inspections; check?

          On the basis of what’s required of landlords and tenants with regard to the provision, operation, and maintenance of smoke alarms under the NSW Residential Tenancies Act (HERE), what’s recommended for fire safety by NSW Fire & Rescue (HERE) and in the absence of any knowledge about your present contractor’s scope-of-work, it just seemed to me that $100/annual check for each property was a bit steep.

          After taking into consideration all of the above, and the fact that your Property Managers are required to undertake an inspection of each of your properties that’s sufficiently thorough to complete an Incoming Condition Report, including the prescribed item on smoke alarms, and you would expect they’d undertake routine property inspections on your behalf at least every six (6) months, I guess you’re the best judge about the worth, from all perspectives, of the services provided by your present contractor.

          Perhaps rev. your Property Managers up to ensure that they’re duly diligent with the regular property inspections and reporting that you’re already paying for, let the inspection contract run for another 12 months, and then based on the quality of the information provided assess how you’ll proceed. 

          #19713
          Kangaroo
          Flatchatter

            Nobzy and Gurus,

            There seems to be some variation in the advice available on the web.

            The LPI common property memorandum:

            https://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/165620/2011_08_Identifying_common_property_in_a_strata_scheme_2.pdf

            makes no distinction based on whether the smoke detectors were installed or not at the time of registration of the strata scheme.

            The only distinction seems to be whether the smoke alarm is hard-wired to the building’s fire safety board.

            The LPI CP memorandum does not necessarily applies to your SP, but it is a useful reference.

            This web site makes most sense to me in terms of a rational assignment of responsibility:

            https://www.stratachoice.com.au/blog/news/whoisresponsibletorepairorreplacesmokesensorsdetectors

            There are three classes of smoke alarm connection:

            1) Standalone (operates on battery) = Lot Owner’s responsibility.

            2) Hard-wired to Lot’s electricity (but has a backup battery) = Lot Owner’s responsibility.

            3) Hard-wired to building’s fire safety board (but has a long-life, possibly rechargable battery) = OC responsibility.

            The reason it makes sense is that a smoke alarm screwed to the ceiling is no more likely to be common property than a light fitting screwed to the ceiling or kitchen cupboards screwed to the wall. All are Owner’s fixtures and fittings.

            Regardless, a landlord is required to supply (and fit?) a new battery in each smoke alarm in their premises at the start of each lease. If you have a Property Manager that should be one of their delegated responsibilities.

            $100 for a professional annual inspection doesn’t sound too expensive to me considering that it covers all smoke alarms in your residence, testing not only with the “test” button but by blowing canned ionised smoke at them, and free replacement of faulty or expired alarms, as advertised (but not necessarily endorsed) here:

            https://www.smokealarmsaustralia.com.au/faq

            Note: Ionisation smoke alarms only have a useful life of 10 years because the radioactive element decays (or half-decays) over time.

            #19715
            Whale
            Flatchatter

              Roo – There is one official “who’s responsible document” issued as a Memorandum by the Director General of NSW Land & Property Information, a couple of quasi-official versions by strata industry organisations, and many interpretations of those including the one that you’ve referenced in your post.

              The problem is that the authors of most versions, interpretations, and extracts omit to read the Principles underlying the official document, and particularly the one that states that it’s “a guide to assist in determining whether a particular item in a strata scheme is part of an owner’s lot or is common property”.

              Now that I’ve gotten that of my chest, it’s important to understand that the Building Codes for Class 2 Buildings, which is the Code used by Councils as the basis for their regulation of the design and construction of multi-unit developments can, whilst allowing for the degree of autonomy permitted to Councils within the Codes, empower them to require that smoke alarms be installed within individual lots as one of the elements of the building’s overall Fire Safety Schedule forming part of their Consent.

              Smoke alarms then installed under that Schedule at the time of construction become part of the building’s Fire Safety Certificate, and the correct operation of those and everything else listed on that Certificate such as fire-rated entry doors, hydrants, hose reels, extinguishers, etc is subject to the annual Fire Safety Inspection and Report that Owners Corporation’s commission at their cost.

              I hope that clarifies rather than confuses the position that Scotty and I posted earlier, and whilst on the subject of confusion, light fittings on ceilings can be common property is some situations. 

              #19720
              Felix
              Flatchatter

                A FIRE SAFETY INSPECTION WAS DONE A MONTH OR TWO AGO BUT 2 FIRE EXTINGUISHERS WERE NOT INSPECTED AND TAGGED AND IN FACT THEY HAVEN’T BEEN INSPECTED FOR A FEW YEARS.

                THIS WAS BROUGHT TO THE ATTENTION OF THE EC AND THE STRATA MANAGER AND NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE ABOUT IT.

                WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST AS THE NEXT STEP?

                #19721
                scotlandx
                Strataguru

                  If you’re really worried have you considered calling the people who did the inspection, their details would be on the certificate?  They shouldn’t sign off unless everything is ok, they could be held liable.

                  #22966
                  Cobra
                  Flatchatter

                    I found the above very informative for my issue but I still need some clarification and additional answers which I hope someone can help me with;

                    1. In our block (1970s NSW) the smoke alarms are battery operated and installed after construction. I am not sure but I believe they were installed by the OC, notwithstanding I take it from the earlier posts that the alarms would be the lot owners responsibility.
                    2. We have an annual fire safety inspection which includes smoke alarms. I also gather from the previous posts that these inspections are a statutory requirement.
                    3. We have not been displaying the certificate on the notice board. Is this mandatory and if yes could you advise where I find the requirement?
                    4. If the inspection reveals the smoke alarm requires repairs, replacement or new batteries can the OC undertake the remedial action and then bill the lot owner?
                    5. In the answer to 4 is No, what action can the OC take to ensure the smoke alarm is serviceable?
                  Viewing 9 replies - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)
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