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  • #8761

    Hi

    I have recently come across an unusual messy situation that I reckon would benefit from some political leadership.  I would appreciate any comments/suggestions/lessons learned from similar experiences.

    Apparently Sydney Water is turning down the flows in selected water mains, presumably to save on maintenance costs of ageing infrastructure.  If a building gets a fire order that includes a hydrant requirement, and the mains flow is below the threshold required by the Australian Standard, then tanks may have to be installed.

    The way I see it there are several problems with this approach as the reduced flow effects all similar buildings connected to the water main:

    • previously installed hydrants may no longer meet the standard raising safety concerns
    • requiring individual buildings to each install tanks is costly and inefficient
    • in built up areas with old water mains suitable common property space is at a premium
    • if the water main is refurbished/replaced/amplified in the normal maintenance cycle and the previous flow/pressure rates restored then the tanks and associated pipes etc that have been installed will no longer be required
    • Fire&RescueNSW must have safety concerns about the reduced supply
    • the local council seems to be reactively advocating individual solutions rather than proactively driving community solutions viz lobbying Sydney Water for mains rectification so that the minimum flow/pressure standard is maintained
    • by not following the council directive an OC risks fines etc

    I reckon this is a state government policy issue.  Do others agree?

    Thanks

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  • #18132
    Whale
    Flatchatter

      It’s not a State Government policy issue, but rather is symptomatic of what happens when pressure (sorry) from developers forces Utilities such as Sydney Water to supply its services to multi-unit developments that tower above allotments where a few single dwellings once stood.

      Electricity supply utilities can require these developers to provide for sub-stations within their developments and Councils require stormwater detention systems, but Utilities providing gas, water, and sewerage services are largely constrained by the limitations of their in-ground infrastructure.

      As an aside but for the very same reasons, the peak dry-weather flows in Greater Sydney’s sewerage system were nearing design system capacities 12 years ago, and that design is four (4) times the expected maximum – so expect those problems to surface some time soon.

      Anyway, back to your immediate problems. Sydney Water’s Operating License permits it to supply its services at levels below those given in its Standards of Service provided it negotiates a Service Agreement with affected customers.

      That Service Agreement should give you and other residents some recourse, and may even secure some assistance with overcoming the issues that you’ve mentioned in your post, including some medium term forecasts.

      Your Owners Corporation could act as the conduit (sorry again) to initiate discussions on that Service Agreement, so I’d suggest having a representative contact Sydney Water to get things moving.

      #18245

      @Whale said:
      It’s not a State Government policy issue, …

      …. Sydney Water’s Operating License permits it to supply its services at levels below those given in its Standards of Service provided it negotiates a Service Agreement with affected customers.

      That Service Agreement should give you and other residents some recourse, and may even secure some assistance with overcoming the issues that you’ve mentioned in your post, including some medium term forecasts.

      Your Owners Corporation could act as the conduit (sorry again) to initiate discussions on that Service Agreement, so I’d suggest having a representative contact Sydney Water to get things moving.

      Hi Whale

      thanks for your response.  I was aware of most of the background but not all … the extra detail is appreciated. I’m not sure if ‘flow’ is covered in the Service Agreements … I understand ‘pressure’ is and my understanding is that Sydney Water are saying that is not below the agreed minimum. “Flow’ is our problem apparently.

      The first suggestion we received (from Sydney Water to our hydraulics consultant) was for our OC to initiate discussions/lobby other buildings etc and so this was the starting point for my thinking.  Hence my points in the first post. 

      I don’t see why one OC needs to spend time and money on a wider problem … in our case I’m told the main was installed in 1917 and so is approaching its centenary and surely end of life.  It’s the State Government that is setting the growth targets and Council that is approving the development. They’ve just dug up half the LGA to increase the electricity supply …

      I suggest it is a policy problem for the State Government that will require direction to Sydney Water and perhaps a change to the agreement.  Council should lobby for change quoting the points I raise in my original post and any other relevant arguments.

      I estimate our 40 yr old building has paid close to $1million (current prices) in rates over the years to council and so would expect some leadership from them and a concern for community safety rather than passing the buck. 

      We have a backpackers across the road and there was a small fire there a while ago.  No one wants a tragedy to drive change.

      Cheers

       

      #18248
      Whale
      Flatchatter

        There is a relationship between flow volume (kL) and pressure (kPa), but like a lot of things in the universe, that relationship “depends”(that’s a technical term Wink).

        Using your Plan’s water supply system as an example, a pressure equivalent to say 15m head (the usual standard) at the inlet to your water supply meter does relate to the flow that emerges from that meter’s outlet BUT the design of your internal water reticulation system builds-in “friction losses” that both increases the flow velocity and decreases the pressure.  

        If you look at your Plan’s 40 year-old internal water reticulation system as a giant garden hose, and its numerous elbows, bends, tees, taps, irregular pipe sizes, and posibly corrosion affected sections as a nozzle at the end of that hose, then a partial closure of that nozzle creates a friction loss resulting in a high pressure / high velocity flow, and when that nozzle is fully opened you’ll get a higher flow volume (L) but at less pressure.

        I suspect that’s a simile of the problem at your Plan, as like most reticulation systems in older multi-unit developments (and some new ones), yours was not designed and has probably “grown” over the years through the incorporation of 40 years worth of ad-hoc additions, including all those friction loss-creating bits and pieces that together contribute significantly to the problem outlined in your posts, perhaps aided and abetted by a Sydney Water supply system that’s providing pressure right on the acceptable limits.

        Whilst I don’t know the nature of the services that your Plan has to date procured, its challenge is to find a Hydraulic Engineer, as opposed to a plumbing consultant, who may well be able to recommend the implementation of some cost-effective design changes to your Plan’s internal water reticulation system. I’d very strongly recommend doing that in conjunction with Sydney Water, that by the way is a Corporatised Trading Enterprise and not subject to State Government interventions to its core business activities, apart from the (at least) annual raid on its coffers under the guise of a “shareholder dividend”.

        Please understand that whilst I do appreciate your feed-back, I’m trying to point out that lobbying the Council to pressure Sydney Water will in my opinion be far less effective than your O/C engaging a professional to, together with Sydney Water, examine your Plan’s own internal water reticulation system  holistically with that operated by Sydney Water.

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