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  • #8938
    Jimmy-T
    Keymaster

      A few weeks ago I caught up with Paul Morton from our sponsors Lannock and he and I worked through his whizzbang spreadsheet software that showed, to my great surprise, how it can cost more to save up the money to fix common property than it does to wait till it needs to be fixed, then get a loan to do it.

      This is a pretty controversial point of view but if it’s true and you as ordinary owners are paying more for repairs by saving up than you would by borrowing, it has to be examined.  Right now when interest on invested money is low and the same applies to borrowed money, the case has never been stronger.

      Anyway, if you want to read Paul’s theory in detail, just click HERE

      The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
    Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 20 total)
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    • #19021
      Kangaroo
      Flatchatter

        Contendo ergo sum.

        Sorry JT and Lannocks, but I totally disagree.

        The overall amount of savings is far less important than who pays.

        If you move into a new building with new carpet in the foyer and the carpet is expected to last 15 years, the rightful contributors to the cost of the eventual new carpet are those who walk on it during those 15 years.

        Not the Owners who happen to be in residence at the 15-year mark, nor their heirs and successors.

        Also, Mr Morton’s calculations could just as easily be applied to the purchase of a new car by a teenager. His spreadsheet would advise you to not to save up and then purchase it. His spreadsheet would look at the lost “opportunity cost” of paying tax on your savings, the inflation rate applicable to new cars, the cost of bus/train tickets to get to work in the meantime, and then advise you to get the car on hire purchase now.

        Ain’t that what’s wrong with the economy?

        #19022
        Jimmy-T
        Keymaster
        Chat-starter


          @Kangaroo
          said:
          Contendo ergo sum.

          The overall amount of savings is far less important than who pays.

          If you move into a new building with new carpet in the foyer and the carpet is expected to last 15 years, the rightful contributors to the cost of the eventual new carpet are those who walk on it during those 15 years.

          Not the Owners who happen to be in residence at the 15-year mark, nor their heirs and successors.

          The user-pays argument has a strong moral basis and I was thinking as I was writing the piece, that would be my objection too.  However, looking purely at the maths, I think the loans stacks up.  It certainly makes sense when you have a building that needs work imminently and there’s nothing in the biscuit tin.

          Ain’t that what’s wrong with the economy?

          I thought what was wrong with the economy was that we were terrified of debt when every country in the world – and every business too – works on debt when it needs to, rather than hiding its money under the bed.

          The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
          #19029
          Sir Humphrey
          Strataguru

            Not just who pays but whether they will pay! If you try to get people to pay for the required work via a levy or taking a loan there is a good chance people will vote to do nothing and spend nothing. If you have a sinking fund plan in place and the levy is planned and on a schedule etc. people get used to it and don’t complain (at least not as much). If the plan includes a contingency component and something unexpected needs doing, or you even propose an improvement to the common property, there is a chance it will be approved because the money has already left people’s pockets. 

            There are savings to be made from attending to work in a timely manner as well. 

            #19030
            FlatChatFan
            Flatchatter

              @PeterC said:
              Not just who pays but whether they will pay! If you try to get people to pay for the required work via a levy or taking a loan there is a good chance people will vote to do nothing and spend nothing. If you have a sinking fund plan in place and the levy is planned and on a schedule etc. people get used to it and don’t complain (at least not as much). If the plan includes a contingency component and something unexpected needs doing, or you even propose an improvement to the common property, there is a chance it will be approved because the money has already left people’s pockets. 

              There are savings to be made from attending to work in a timely manner as well. 

              I agree.

              My preference is to have slight increases in levies over the years than Special Levies, or Loans.  Now I am not working full time and prefer to have an idea of my quarterly costs if at all possible.  I realise there will always be emergencies and not enough money available, but at least there is some.

              Loans have charges and interest rates do not always stay low.

              #18630
              struggler
              Flatchatter

                I agree with PeterC’s comments.  

                What if you get a loan for works in your complex.  You get the work done. Then something unexpected comes up 6 months later.  You have little money in the bank thats why you got the loan in the first place.  So now you have to get another loan?  That is exactly why so many people are in personal debt.  They dont have the money, they put it on plastic/get a loan. Then something else comes up.  Put that on plastic/get a loan.  And so it goes.  

                If levies are expected then people can plan and budget for them.  In this complex owners said they would prefer lower levies that increased slightly over the years, and special levy to top up the coffers should any major works need attending to.  A loan would be our last option.  Quite frankly for me strata finance should be like personal finance – if you dont have the money then maybe you cant afford it.  There are alot of home owners out there who could learn from strata levies and put money aside each quarter for repairs/maintenance.  

                We have only had one special levy here to correct faults in the complex that the builder refused to fix under warranty.  We spread the levy over a few quarters to ease the pain.  We already had enough money to cover the works immediately.  The levy was to top up the bank account after this unexpected expense.  Would prefer to go down this path again.  A loan should always be a last resort.  A spreadsheet doesn’t allow for variables in real life.

                 

                #19162
                Paul Morton
                Flatchatter

                  I’m pleased to see the comments that the article Jimmy published has generated.  Sensible, educated discussion about strata economics is finally starting to become mainstream which is great.  There are too many ideas raised in the comments for me to respond to them all but here are some high level responses to some of the ideas:

                  “Who pays?” – the undeniable fact of strata is that everyone always pays, all the time.  During the 15 year life of a carpet, you’re either paying as you go in the form of regular levies to a sinking fund; or  later in its life with a larger, one-off levy to replace it; or in reduced capital appreciation of your unit.  The user is ALWAYS paying and you only have a choice about the form of payment.  If you have levies to a sinking fund, then you need to offset them against the appreciation in your property to work out the true return.  Ditto for a special levy.  If you’ve not had any levies, then you’ll have paid in the form of reduced appreciation.  If you’ve borrowed to fix the carpet, then you get the uptick in value from a better presented property and you have to offset the cost of borrowing against this.  Because you’ll always pay, it’s important to consider the relative advantages and disadvantages of each form of funding, especially costs and  borrowing is often a cheaper option.

                  “Why borrow?”  Strata corporations should borrow for the same reasons people and companies borrow.  First, it’s an enabler, you can do things you otherwise wouldn’t be able to do.  Most people don’t buy a property without a component of debt.  Many people don’t even buy shares without a debt component.  Many people wouldn’t renovate their house without some debt.  Next, it’s a tool for increasing your return.  Equity, your own money, your hard earned cash, is expensive.  The cost of debt goes through cycles, but it’s when you put debt and equity together that you reduce your ‘weighted average cost of capital’ and that increases your overall return.

                  “Is borrowing good or bad?”  It’s neither.  Or, more accurately, it depends on your situation.  If you’ve borrowed and the Return On Investment is positive (that is, the increase in value exceeds the cost of borrowing), then it’s clearly good.  If your project has negative returns, then borrowing will only put you further down the tube. I would be careful about the analogy with a car because a car is rarely an asset, it depreciates and the amount you put into maintenance serves only to keep it safely on the road and to prevent it depreciating more quickly.  Car maintenance is an expense, not an investment and it doesn’t turn a depreciating means of transport into an appreciating asset.

                  “Levies, planning and budgeting”  Strata borrowing isn’t a last ditch tool if you’ve no alternative.  Planning and budgeting doesn’t mean you don’t borrow, it means you consider the situation carefully and work out the right mix of debt and equity, just as you would do in any other important investment decision.  Sometimes it will be all debt, sometimes all equity.  Often it will be a carefully planned mixture.

                  People often get unnecessarily hooked up on Admin Levies, Sinking Fund Levies and Special Levies.  Sometimes the distinctions are important, especially when you look at the tax profile and the purposes to which various funds can be put.  But there are really only two kinds of levies in strata.  You can have a large number of small levies (such as to a sinking fund or to service a loan) or a small number of large levies (ie, a ‘special’ levy).  Each situation is different and requires owners to work carefully through the issue to work out which, or what mix, is right in their situation.

                  Finally, please don’t confuse strata finance with personal finance.  Personal finance is almost always for consumption – we ‘consume’ a holiday or transport (by buying a car).  Strata finance is invariably funding to improve the value of, and your return from, an asset.

                  By the way, if you’d like to talk through the analysis, give me a call on 02 9357 5371 or drop me a line at paul@lannock.com.au.

                  Paul Morton

                  Lannock Strata Finance

                  #19164
                  kiwipaul
                  Flatchatter

                    I understand the process of a Strata loan for major expenditure but what I would like to know is can some owners opt out of participating in the loan and instead pay the required contribution for their lot, hence avoiding having to pay interest on the loan.

                    If certain owners have the cash available to cover a  special levy can they just pay it and not have to participate in the loan or once a loan is approved by the OC does everyone have to participate.

                    I would imagine this would apply the same throughout Oz not just in NSW.

                     

                    #19165
                    scotlandx
                    Strataguru

                      I don’t necessarily disagree with strata loans, although in general I am not keen on them, they may have a place in certain circumstances.

                      In terms of Why Borrow?  You refer to it being an enabler, i.e. to allow the OC to do something it otherwise can’t do.  The OC has an obligation under the Act to maintain the property, it doesn’t have a choice.  One thing I like about requiring contributions to be made to the sinking fund is the psychological effect, many owners don’t realise or don’t want to realise that they have an obligation to maintain and upgrade as necessary, and make sure they have funds set aside for that purpose.

                      #19169
                      Paul Morton
                      Flatchatter

                        Scotlandx makes a good point about the psychological benefit of people realising they have to pay.  I’m amazed how often people seem to think that cleaning, gardening, management and capital works all come free!  Every funding situation is different and there’s no ‘one size fits all’ solution.  The answers lie in planning and transparency, not in mandating one alternative or another.  Special levies, sinking funds and loans all have their individual attributes which will apply more or less in each situation and each have costs and benefits that need to be weighed up in each situation.  Paul Morton.  paul@lannock.com.au

                        #19475
                        Paul Morton
                        Flatchatter


                          @kiwipaul
                          said:
                          I understand the process of a Strata loan for major expenditure but what I would like to know is can some owners opt out of participating in the loan and instead pay the required contribution for their lot, hence avoiding having to pay interest on the loan.

                          If certain owners have the cash available to cover a  special levy can they just pay it and not have to participate in the loan or once a loan is approved by the OC does everyone have to participate.

                          I would imagine this would apply the same throughout Oz not just in NSW.

                          I’ve heard of all kinds of weird and wonderful arrangements for opting in and out, but can’t recommend any of them. It comes down to the nature of OC funding and levies. 

                          If an OC needs funds, it can borrow or levy.  But levies are applied to everyone in proportion to their unit entitlements, there’s no provision in strata law to levy some owners and not levy others. 

                          Of course, the owners who want to pay upfront could lend the money to the OC, but that’s the beginning of a lot of hassle, complexity and uncertainty.  The OC will have to calculate interest and repayments, that’s not easy and people will get very upset if everything isn’t just so.

                          A better way to think of this issue is to pose the question:  “If I’m an owner who wants to pay upfront, why should I agree to the strata corporation borrowing?”

                          There are several reasons.  The first is just being practical.  The most important thing is to get the right works done by the right contractor in the right way.  The biggest bang for your buck, the best return on investment of money and time, comes from making sure you are doing the right works.  If you attempt to force a special levy, the works proposal might fall over because others can’t afford the special levy.

                          The second relates to your own cost of funds.  Money is never free, you have to find the cash for a special levy from somewhere.  If you have credit card debt at the end of each month, your cost of money is around 20%.  Or perhaps you have to sell shares to pay for the special levy, your cost of money is the lost return on your shares.  Or perhaps a special levy means you’ll have to delay that holiday, or not have cash to give to the kids, or not buy that car.  Many owners underestimate their own cost of money.

                          Paul Morton paul@lannock.com.au

                          #19519

                          So guys, there is clearly circumstances where it is preferable to get works done now rather than later.

                          The issue remains to be – if you want or need the works done now, you have two options. Special Levy or Strata Finance.

                          Strata Finance works for some however an owners corporation must demonstrate to the loan company that they have raised levies sufficiently to budget for the repayments including interest. This will be a condition of approval for the loan facility. Given that these loans are unsecured you will often see interest rates of over 12% (not sure what Lannock et. al. are currently offering). All owners will need to contribute to the repayments including the interest component by way of increased levies according to their unit of entitlement.

                          On the other hand many owners corporations will prefer to raise a special levy to carry out works now. If some owners do not have cash up front, a secured loan or extension on their mortgage to pay the special levy will cost them a lot less in interest repayments over the course of their loan.

                          The other issue is the heightened confusion and uncertainty added to prospective purchasers when they see strata loans disclosed as opposed to special levy payments.

                          #19527
                          scotlandx
                          Strataguru

                            I couldn’t agree more with just get on with it.  Strata finance companies aren’t lending money out of the goodness of their hearts and the interest rates are relatively high.  In terms of cost of money, it is usually cheaper and more efficient for each owner to raise the money themselves, and the OC isn’t carrying the loan on its books.

                            #28518
                            Waratah
                            Flatchatter

                              Our large strata scheme is facing building works of over $10 million and is currently debating how to fund them. There is discussion of a strata loan. “Just get on with it” said (on 20/9/2013):

                              The other issue is the heightened confusion and uncertainty added to prospective purchasers when they see strata loans disclosed as opposed to special levy payments.

                              Could someone explain why a strata loan causes more concern to a prospective purchaser than a large special levy?

                              #19476
                              Jimmy-T
                              Keymaster
                              Chat-starter

                                @Waratah said:
                                Could someone explain why a strata loan causes more concern to a prospective purchaser than a large special levy?  

                                I think that falls under speculation and opinion rather than fact.

                                Consider this,  assuming the amount hasn’t already been paid, the prospective purchaser will take a look at the proposed special levy and deduct it from the value they place on the property.  In a cooling market, that is a very real scenario.

                                However, if they are informed that major works are proposed and there will be a strata loan taken out, meaning an amount will be added to their levies for the next however long, that is not going to be a case of simple subtraction. Whether or not that puts them off buying is another matter entirely

                                Some people abhor loans in any form, others live off their credit cards, accumulating debts as they go.  Some have the money lay out on large one-off payments.  Others would have to sell their property if they were hit by a huge bill (although if they have any equity in their property they could probably get a second mortgage).

                                Paul Morton of Lannock talks about the hidden cost of levies – the opportunity cost of spending money that then can’t be invested or ends up attracting 20 percent interest on your credit card.

                                I personally think strata loans are a more equitable form of raising finance and they are probably less likely to scare the horses.

                                The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                                #28520
                                Waratah
                                Flatchatter

                                  Thanks Jimmy.

                                  Just so I’m quite clear on this, does this paragraph below describe what some people might think if a loan is taken out?

                                  However, if they are informed that major works are proposed and there will be X amount added to their levies for the next however long, that is not going to be a case of simple subtraction. Whether or not that puts them off buying is another matter entirely

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