Flat Chat Strata Forum Common Property Current Page

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  • #8272
    hughsnews
    Flatchatter

      Hi All,

      At the beginning of last year, both myself and my neighbour noticed water entering the bottom floor of our terraced apartments which we own. The strata company sent out a builder to review the damage and solve the issue. He came and performed no tests and randomly decided the issue was due to an airconditioner on my roof, despite the fact he had never seen the airconditioner. Long story short, I was demanded to fix the problem and pay all damages. After several months of arguing they finally asked the contractor to come in again and take another look. This time he came with a water meter and worked out it wasn’t my AC. (I never did get an apology Laugh)

      Ultimately, over the course of another several months they tried to work out the problem with no avail, instead deciding to fix the drainage/weep holes and properly waterproofing the internal cavity to stop the water coming in, rather than working out how the water got into the internal cavity.

      From the beginning of the problem until the day they waterproofed the walls etc it took around 9-10 months, with my house flooding slightly each time it rained heavily. As such, I now have mould problems, my paint is bubbling/peeling, my skirting board is damaged and worst of all, my floating floor is warped.

       

      Despite the ineptitude of the builders and the strata company, I am now being told I need to pay for my damages through my insurance, despite the water clearly entering from common property and despite them taking 3/4 of a year to fix the problem thus creating a LOT of damage to my unit. Do I have any grounds to argue that the BC should pay for damages or claim it on their insurance? I have read that carpet is often not covered by the BC insurance but that floating floors are because once they are installed they are “permanent”? Can anyone shed some light on my legal options and whether I can get them to repair any of the damages instead of claiming on my insurance?

       

      Any help would be amazing! Thanks so much

    Viewing 10 replies - 1 through 10 (of 10 total)
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    • #15975
      pmo

        Unfortunately you have to claim damage to your property on your own contents insurance. See https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Tenants_and_home_owners/Strata_schemes/Repairs_and_maintenance.html

         

        The floating floor may or may not be your property. It depends on whether it was built as part of the original building or whether you or a previous owner added it. 

        If it is original then the OC must repair it under Sect. 62 of the Act. If it was added later then it is yours and you have to claim it on your insurance.

        Under the circumstances you may be able to ask the OC to cover your insurance excess. 

        #15981
        pmo

          Sorry, slight correction to that. Under Section 81 of the Act permanent floor coverings such as a floating floor form part of the “Building” and come under the OC’s building insurance policy.

          Whether the actual cause of the water damage is covered by the OC’s insurance policy is another matter that would have to be determined.

          #15989
          davidp
          Flatchatter

            Would this not be a similar problem to that mentioned in the thread “Who is responsible?”

            In that thread (CLICK HERE) it was a very similar situation and the common view was that it was the responsibility of the OC.

             

            Would that not be the situation in this case?

             

            David

            #15990
            scotlandx
            Strataguru

              If the damage to your lot is due to a defect or defects in the common property, and from what you have said it sounds like that is the case, then the Owners Corporation is responsible for the cost of repairing the damage.

              To that extent it is irrelevant whether the things in your lot form part of the common property, or whether strata insurance covers it.  Even if their insurance doesn’t cover it they are responsible.

              For example:

              – leak in roof which is common property causing damage to inside of unit – OC responsibility to fix damage.

              – a fire caused by a fault in something that forms part of your lot, e.g. wiring installed by you, causing damage – your responsibility.

              #15993
              pmo

                Not correct sorry. If a water leak from OC pipe for example causes damage to your carpet then you have to claim on your insurance. OC does not pay and does not claim on their insurance. See 

                https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Tenants_and_home_owners/Strata_schemes/Repairs_and_maintenance.html

                #15994
                Jimmy-T
                Keymaster

                  @pmo said:
                  Not correct sorry. If a water leak from OC pipe for example causes damage to your carpet then you have to claim on your insurance. OC does not pay and does not claim on their insurance. See 

                  https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Tenants_and_home_owners/Strata_schemes/Repairs_and_maintenance.html

                  I have heard so many versions of this  and every time I think we have a definitive answer, something else pops up.

                  Here is one of the scenarios in the Fair Trading document quoted by PMO.

                  There is damp and mould in my unit.

                  The owners corporation is responsible for water penetration problems coming in through external walls or the floor. The owner is responsible for the mould on their walls.

                  That seems to suggest that the Owner’s Corp has to fix the problem that’s causing the damp but the owner has to fix the internal damage caused by the problem.

                  Then there’s the famous Who’s Responsible memorandum which says …

                  1.5 …major considerations have been:
                  a. all internal and external waterproofing is the responsibility of the Owners Corporation (including the function of any structure) except where a lot owner causes damage to waterproofing,

                  Later it says …

                  2.12 Floor – Owners responsibility
                  c. Internal carpets and unfixed floating floors.

                  And then we have

                  2.13 General – OC responsibility
                  b. Dampness in a unit coming from outside.

                  And then …

                  2.17 Plumbing (includes bathroom, kitchen and laundry) – OC responsibility

                  a. Blocked floor drain or sewer in common property.

                  b. Burst pipe in common property.

                  c. Burst pipe outside the lot.

                  d. Damage to unit after water leak when OC effecting a repair.

                  i. Water leaking through tiles or from one lot and affecting another lot or common property.

                  Hmmm, clear as mud? A lot of that seems contradictory to me but there are three things you need to remember with regard to this document.

                  1. It has no legal standing unless is has been adopted as part of your by-laws.

                  2.  Even so, if you find yourself at Fair Trading or the CTTT arguing a point not covered by your by-laws, the adjudicator will reach for the Memorandum as a guide.

                  3.  There are principles of common law that mean if A’s actions or negligence costs B in some way,  then A can theoretically be held accountable. 

                  The question then arises, is it worth pursuing a claim for say, the excess on your insurance, or an increased insurance premium? The answer, more often than not will probably be ‘no’. 

                  If your insurance is happy to pay for the carpet and it doesn’t affect your premiums, go with the flow.  But if it’s going to cost you substantially, I’d be looking for compensation from the Owners Corp becasue of their negligence.

                  The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                  #15997
                  scotlandx
                  Strataguru

                    I’m not sure why the DOFT says that – the CTTT can’t award damages but a court can, and there have been a number of cases where damage to a unit has been caused by defects in common property, and the OC has been ordered to pay. As a general proposition if damage is caused by one party, generally that party is responsible for fixing it.
                    For example https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/nsw/NSWSC/2010/68.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=Nicita

                    #15998
                    Jimmy-T
                    Keymaster

                      I seem to recall the last time we had this discussion the word from on high was that if, for instance, a common property water pipe leaked and damaged the paintwork inside a unit, the Owners Corp would pay for the repainting required after the work done to fix the pipe but the owner would have to pay for the repainting required because of the original leak.
                      Didn’t make sense then and it doesn’t make sense now. Except for this … I believe strata managers, lawyers and insurers all had considerable input into the Memorandum and they may have helped decide where the lines were drawn. For instance, if insurance companies said, ‘look, we’ll wear the costs of the internal stuff rather than it having to be an Owner’s Corp issue’ (which, collectively, they would have to have paid for anyway), it could have been a way of simplifying the process without the individual owner suffering unduly. It might also be a way of preventing opportunistic owners remodelling their apartment based on a tiny leak in their living room.
                      That may not be the interpretation under common law but then the Memorandum is not a legal document – it’s a guide. And it’s really no different from your car insurer paying out on minor damages caused by another driver rather than having the additional expense of pursuing them through the courts to prove that they were at fault.

                      The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                      #16000

                      Got another water ingress scenario, which existed prior to my purchase 2 years ago with both EC & SM knowledge and failed to resolve. The timber balcony wall with windows and a hinge door is on a red brick building pre 1974 bylaws. D’OH! Live and learn.
                      Expert opinions have found that worn away waterproofing on the balcony slab, external to the balcony wall has contributed to the water ingress. As has the way it was built, as per original 1965 design. That is no step between internal and external of the balcony wall to provide a physical barrier and no weep holes so the timber frame and original flashing is exposed with very harsh conditions an additional factor. Experts have highlighted that another possible cause of water ingress may be the cavity/damp course, however this can only be determined once the structure is removed. This aspect is included in waterproofing rectification recommended by builders who have provided quotes to rectify the problem.
                      We are currently close, I hope, to determining who is responsible and cost for each party (OC and myself). I’m shocked to find that private property includes the brickwork around the cavity, next to the timber balcony wall frame. This is due to the interpretation of a very unclear dotted line on a 1965 strata plan diagram.
                      Any advice?
                      Thanks also for the info already outlined, but I’m disadvantaged by our older bylaws.

                      #16001
                      hughsnews
                      Flatchatter
                      Chat-starter

                        Hi Everyone,

                        Thanks for all your responses. Although all the different advice is confusing, it’s been very helpful.

                         

                        So what I can tell is that under the Fair Trading etc, they will claim that I need to claim my insurance for the damage to my floors.

                        However, if they have been negligent, I could then take them to court and claim that because of this they need to pay. I’d argue they were negligent- simply because they hired a dodgy contractor and when I told them his report was based on lies etc, they continued arguing with me for several months before a second report was commisioned, causing even more damage to my apartment. (Although taking them to court would cost me even more money)

                        Also as pointed in another post, this case https://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/nsw/NSWSSB/1998/11.html is incredibly interesting and also appears like it’ll be relevant.

                         

                        Have I missed anything? LaughLaughLaugh

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