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  • #10996
    c_mcph
    Flatchatter

      Hi Jimmy,

      Just read your article about ‘options’ for handling Airbnb in the SMH, and I’m wondering why you left out the most obvious and in my opinion best option? 

      Currently councils already deal with short term rental by offering and enforcing B&B, Hostel, Hotel etc licences.  What should happen is that they simply add another licence for private short term rental and collect a licence fee from anyone who rents property for less than 3 month terms.  This would allow for the council to inspect every property for fire/ safety / capacity issues.  They would also be the arbiter for disputes.  They would decide if the location for any short term rental is appropriate. 

      The executive committee of strata boards are not willing or able to take on the task of presiding over short term rentals.  The number of short term rental properties should be reduced though this Council owned assessment process.  Other residents would need to show proof of breaking the short term rental licence rules to for the Council to act on ending the licence.  Very strange to me that this option has not been suggested.

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    • #26630
      Jimmy-T
      Keymaster

        What you’re saying makes a lot of sense … in theory.

        But you have to ask yourself why, despite having the largest number of apartment buildings in the country in their bailiwick, City of Sydney Council proposed the policy that could soon be the backbone of holiday letting legislation: that holiday lets be “complying developments” . 

        The simple answer is that they – and all the other councils that currently turn a blind eye to illegal holiday lets – don’t have the resources to police any licensing that might be brought in.  And because of the nature of the beast – too many people operating outside the law at the same time –  the revenue is unlikely to cover the additional cost.

        Airbnb hosts operate outside planning laws in this state (and many others), just as Uber did with taxi licensing laws.  The explosion of online holiday letting – something like 23,000 listings in Sydney at the moment – has caught the authorities with their pants down.

        So we have a bunch of Airbnb hosts that have been given “permission” by social media to breach planning and strata by-laws. Airbnb pays lip service to their hosts being compliant with local laws but they do absolutely zero when they get evidence that planning laws or by-laws have been breached, except to dob in the complainer to the miscreant.

        So, bring in a licensing system and you will have more people breaching than paying the licence.  In short, the bigger the problem, the less money you will have to fund counter measures.

        Also, the usage of online holiday letting agencies is incredibly localised around the inner city, beach and harbourside suburbs.  This means that the majority of NSW MPs won’t give a hoot, because it doesn’t affect them.  However, local councils could fear that any major push against holiday letting could be a big vote loser if they are expected to disrupt the mythical hug-fest that Airbnb and its ilk purport to be.

        In other words, who wants to be the nasty guy taking the free money from “ordinary people” who are just paying off their student loans, saving up so they can have children or buy Auntie Mabel a new wooden leg.

        So while what you are suggesting makes eminent sense, it represents something that could cost councils a lot of money and votes.  Let’s not forget that it was the threat of massive fines to illegal B&Bs in the inner west that prompted the government inquiry in the first place.

        That’s why many councils have quietly imposed a moratorium on pursuing illegal holiday lets.  What happened to those million-dollar fines?  When was the last time you heard of someone being breached for running holiday lets in a residential zone?  It’s not like they are hard to find.

        Councils don’t want to have a bar of this because it’s too hard.  There is a compelling argument for leaving things the way they are and letting councils enforce their own planning regulations.  But they don’t want to and we can’t make them and that’s why I believe licensing isn’t even on the table. 

        The only truly effective way is for individual buildings to be able to choose for themselves and police it accordingly.  After all, they will have to do that anyway under proposed legislation, so they may as well enforce their own rules rather than some cockamamie half-baked notion cooked up in Macquarie St to keep a bunch of American billionaires happy.

        By the way, I think the government’s keenness to validate illegal beahviour by changing the laws to accommodate it could come back to bite them on the bum.

        If enough people can ignore road traffic and planning laws, and strata by-laws, to get the law changed in their favour, how likely is it that owners corporations will start cutting off power and access keys on even less dubious grounds than the holiday let landlords used when they set up in the first place?

        The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
        #26633
        c_mcph
        Flatchatter
        Chat-starter

          Thanks Jimmy for the details response.  I agree with your analysis of the situation, but perhaps not the solution. 

          If we were talking about muggings, and the police were known to be turning a blind eye because they are under-funded, the solution would not be to arm the neighbourhood watch.  The reality that many people are trying to break law is not a reason to give up on policing it.

          If the councils need to make the licence fee high enough to cover the cost of what I would call ‘doing their job’, then that’s ok.  Isn’t the Airbnb proposal to take a large cut from hosts and give it to strata?  Why not make the licence expensive instead?  The 23,000 hosts we have now is way too high.  Not every property is suitable for short term rental.  That number should be halved.

          I’m still left with a couple of questions about the way you and other journalists write about Airbnb.  Firstly, if you believe that Council ownership of short-term rental management is ‘makes a lot of sense’ then why did you not list it as one of the options in your article explaining the down sides it brings?  You gave 5 very detailed options but left out a major one.

          Secondly, I understand why Airbnb continually represent themselves as ‘mum and dad making some extra cash’, by why do journalist not talk about the people buying units for Airbnb exclusively?  That’s the real issue.  I can’t imagine there are any issues for neighbours in properties where the owners are living there at the same time.

          Full disclosure, my wife and I own properties that are being rented Airbnb, but they are in Kings Cross, are high end, require 1 week min stay and don’t offer stereos or allow parties.  We have never had a genuine complaint.  We did though face an issue with one property when we started.  The chairman of the executive committee is a bored old man who came up with a range of fictitious issues.  He wrongly though there would be more noise, and water costs even though the place is only rented 70% of the time.  He didn’t want ‘strangers’ in the building even though the guests are all fully vetted well off tourists and the building is between two Kings cross hostels.   He called the council who came to inspect but they told us that the ONLY issue they have with a well-run Airbnb like ours was that in event of a fire, a short term guest will be less well orientated and unlike a hotel there are no staff to help.

          I mention this because my concern is that a plan to let strata executive committee’s manage short -term rental will mean there will be a reduction in the number of Airbnb, but not the places that genuinely need to be refused the option to rent short term but in buildings with the most ‘angry’ and forceful committees.  

          #26634
          Jimmy-T
          Keymaster

            @c_mcph said:
            I’m still left with a couple of questions about the way you and other journalists write about Airbnb.  Firstly, if you believe that Council ownership of short-term rental management is ‘makes a lot of sense’ then why did you not list it as one of the options in your article explaining the down sides it brings?  You gave 5 very detailed options but left out a major one.

            Because is is not, so far as I know, being seriously discussed and that’s because councils have made it clear they aren’t interested.

            Secondly, I understand why Airbnb continually represent themselves as ‘mum and dad making some extra cash’, by why do journalist not talk about the people buying units for Airbnb exclusively? 

            I do and I have, somewhere in the 25 articles I have written about Airbnb and which they have complained about.  Other journalists may have been seduced by the whole free money myth but I can’t speak for them. 

            Regarding your other comments, I have heard anecdotally from building managers that 19 out of 20 airbnb rentals are absolutely fine but the 20th will be an absolute horror-show.  That one bad apple can have a very deleterious effect on the rest of the strata barrel.

            The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
            #26635
            c_mcph
            Flatchatter
            Chat-starter

              “Because it is not, so far as I know, being seriously discussed and that’s because councils have made it clear they aren’t interested.”

              If it’s the right way to handle the issue then it should be discussed and it is irrelevant to me as a taxpayer that the councils are stating that they are not interested.  Councils are the right people to manage this and everyone, especially journalists, should make an effort to highlight that. 

              Executive committees are not capable or willing to own this responsibility and the outcome if they are will be very bad in many ways.  Their involvement should be limited to reporting possible licencing violations to council.  Council should have very little trouble in finding licence breakers.  As your college at SMH, Sue Williams, (like me a Kings Cross local), wrote this week, the ATO will have access to all Airbnb records so it would be very easy to match addresses from Airbnb money taken with the addresses of short-term rental licences. 

              #26636
              c_mcph
              Flatchatter
              Chat-starter

                If we were looking to licence Uber driver (and we should), would we let the nearest 20 or so cars driving next to the Uber driver’s home be responsible?  I mean they just happen to be the closest people?  They could take a vote once a year to see who is on the Uber licencing executive committee for that street.  Let them decide what constitutes a breach of passenger transportation regulations. 

                OR should the same government department that licences taxi’s be responsible for Uber licences?  And if Transport for NSW just said that they are “not interested” should we just let them refuse this?  Or do we need to push for the government to do the job we pay them for?

                (Perhaps a bad example cos they haven’t licenced Uber)

                #26637
                Jimmy-T
                Keymaster


                  @c_mcph
                  said:
                  “Because it is not, so far as I know, being seriously discussed and that’s because councils have made it clear they aren’t interested.”

                  If it’s the right way to handle the issue then it should be discussed and it is irrelevant to me as a taxpayer that the councils are stating that they are not interested. 

                  Perhaps, but it isn’t being discussed, which is my point.

                  Councils are the right people to manage this and everyone, especially journalists, should make an effort to highlight that. 

                  That is your opinion, and definitely not mine, if only because they have failed spectacularly to manage this issue to date.

                  Oh, and thanks for telling me how to do my job.    

                  Executive committees are not capable or willing to own this responsibility and the outcome if they are will be very bad in many ways. 

                  Again this is only your opinion and a deeply flawed one at that.  Several chairs of large buildings have just put over $60,000 into a fighting fund to combat the the one-sided publicity trotted out by Airbnb.  

                  How can you then say they wouldn’t be interested in policing this in their own buildings, since that is exactly what they are campaigning for?

                  The scenario you describe would undoubtedly suit you but you can’t extrapolate your personal and (by your own admission) biased preference into a policy that would work for everyone.

                  The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                  #26638
                  Jimmy-T
                  Keymaster

                    @c_mcph said:
                    (Perhaps a bad example cos they haven’t licenced Uber)  

                    Yes they have – or at least they have allowed it and are charging them extra Road Tax for doing so.

                    Read my column in the Herald tomorrow – it explains the difference between Uber and Airbnb.

                    The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                    #26640
                    c_mcph
                    Flatchatter
                    Chat-starter

                      Sorry to sound like I was telling you how to do your job but I see leaving out council obligations as dropping the ball if you write an article about options for handling Airbnb. It’s not just my opinion that this is a council responsibility. The article has a list of Council regulations:

                      https://www.domain.com.au/news/nsw-government-investigating-airbnb-rentals-20150627-ghu7l0/

                      Its not an opinion that councils have regulations around short term rental that they need to be enforcing. This is their job. Sydney City Council for example do acknowledge their responsibility (As you say, without doing much about it):

                      https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/119543/visitortouristaccomdcp_150306.pdf

                      This might not be the most current version, but it clearly states:
                      “Tourist accommodation means a building or part of a building that provides temporary or short term accommodation for travellers and tourists who generally have their principal place of residence elsewhere. Tourist andVisitor Accommodation includes serviced apartments, backpacker accommodation, hotels, guest houses, bed and breakfast accommodation, motels and the like.”

                      How is this not the very definition of what Airbnb do?

                      Yes it would suit me to have the councils do their job, that doesn’t rule it out as being the best option to fix the issues. You might be right that large building strata’s might have a lazy $60,000 available to fight Airbnb, but should they have to? My experience is more around smaller buildings where there is no $60,000 fighting fund or the skills or the will to fight.

                      I look forward to your Uber vs Airbnb article. I see taxing Uber drivers a road tax as different to licensing which would allow restricting of inappropriate drivers. This seems to be another government failure to act.

                      #26641
                      Jimmy-T
                      Keymaster

                        @c_mcph said:
                        Sorry to sound like I was telling you how to do your job but I see leaving out council obligations as dropping the ball if you write an article about options for handling Airbnb. It’s not just my opinion that this is a council responsibility. 

                        I am going to say this once more and then I’m shutting this down – and it’s not because I want to end the discussion but because of your insulting choice of words and refusal to respond to what I am saying rather than what you want to hear.

                        Trust me, if I wanted to limit your “free speech”, all your posts would have already gone.

                        I explained previously that my article was about options that were being discussed. As far as I know, the idea of somehow persuading councils to do what, I agree, is their legal duty has not been discussed in any significant way. 

                        Why?  Probably because it’s already not working and the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

                        How do I know this?  Because I am in regular contact with the three government ministers at the heart of the new legislation.

                        I am also certain of this because councils have made it clear to parliament that they are not interested in policing this out-of-control cash grab by apartment residents. 

                        I don’t dispute that councils have a duty and I don’t dispute that they have failed to exercise it.  I have already explained the probable reason why that is the case.

                        If you can’t accept the facts, that’s really not my problem, but I would be “dropping the ball” if I pretended increased council activity was a real option. Maybe it should be, but it’s not.  

                        You can quote all the legislation you like, but look around you.  Name one instance of someone being pinged for running illegal short-term lets in Sydney in the past year.

                        Also, only a couple of councils made submissions to the Coure inquiry.  One was from the Byron Bay area that has its own problems, the other was from City of Sydney, washing their hands of the whole airbnb problem and handing it back to the government.

                        Now, THAT is dropping the ball and if you have a problem with that, take it up with Clover Moore and her hipster policy wonks.

                        The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
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