Flat Chat Strata Forum Living in strata Current Page

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  • #10280
    Jimmy-T
    Keymaster

      Way back in the early days of Flat Chat – about 11 years ago –  I wrote a piece for the Sydney Morning Herald called “Send In The Clowns” which was basically about how incompetent, illogical and even anti-strata some NSW Consumer, Trader and Tenancy Tribunal (CTTT) adjudicators could be.

      It’s been three years since the CTTT was absorbed into the NCAT super-tribunal, and we have to ask if anything has really changed.

      Nack in the day, the worst CTTT adjudicators and mambers  would blithely ignore by-law breaches because they didn’t think strata by-laws were important.  Others would enforce their own rules so rigidly that people were losing legitimate cases on incredibly minor technicalities.

      For instance, owners and tenants would routinely be told that noise was part of apartment living and they had to put up with it, despite the fact that strata law says no such thing. Noisy timber floors would be allowed if their owners scattered a few rugs here and there, condemning downstairs neighbours to living hell just so the selfish bastards upstairs could trendify their apartment.

      There was the Russian lawyer who built a staircase through the loft above his apartment to a deck on the roof, who then insisted in having an interpreter, despite running a successful legal practice in English.  The CTTT went along with it and failed miserably to deal with the culprit effectively, causing his neighbours months if not years of hassle and heartbreak.

      There were the residents of a block of units who were being terrorized by the violent jailbird boyfriend of a neighbour.  Their action for penalties for breach of a Notice To Comply was thrown out because they forgot to bring the minutes of the EC meeting that had issued the NTC.

      The Member refused to adjourn the meeting for 10 minutes while it was fetched.  The boyfriend was gleefully uttering more threats as they left the hearing. The residents had to start the whole process all over again, enduring several weeks more of abuse, threats and property destruction.

      There was the adjudicator who accepted the word of noisy tenants who said they weren’t aware that there were by-laws, even though the Notice To Comply, which they had ignored, listed the number and the exact wording of the by-law that they had breached.

      The list went on and on. Exacerbating the problem was the fact that few people, this writer included, understood the complex relationship between Fair Trading – the first point of contact for most strata issues – and the CTTT.

      When I was hauled up to meet the CTTT director because of my negative stories, she declined to tell me how many of her adjudicators had ever lived in apartments, claiming it was a matter of “privacy”.  Soon after there was a recruitment drive for new adjudicators and some of them seemed to lose the attitude that people who lived in apartments deserved what they got.

      Then in January 2013, CTTT ceased to exist and NCAT – the NSW Civil Administration Tribunal – came into existence and some of us thought everything would be OK. But is it?

      I realise this website by its very nature filters out positive stories – people tend not to write to us saying they are having such a wonderful time they don’t know what to do with themselves.

      But there is a disturbing trickle of stories that suggest NCAT is no better that the CTTT was at resolving strata disputes.

      A few examples:

      The notorious Bridgeport building where the EC is determinedly hanging on to its illegal short-term lets despite a Land and Environment Court ruling against its managers.  Whistleblowers claim they are being discriminated against and being bullied, including a preposterous threat of a special levy of $200,000 to take legal action against them for “bringing the building into disrepute” (clearly intended as a scare tactic).

      And yet NCAT thinks this building does not require the statutory appointment of a strata manager to sort things out.  Could it be because there are current and former Government MPs in the power group controlling the building?

      OK, let’s assume for a moment that the threshold for statutory management is a bit higher than just willfully breaching planning laws, ridiculous as that may seem. How about the case of an owners corporation that successfully took action against a family who owned a number of properties in the building for breaches of by-laws?

      In a parallel action, the offending family successfully applied for the appointment of a strata manager to replace the EC because the EC was wasting money by pursuing by-law breaches. In short, NCAT sacked the EC for doing their job properly according to its own standards.

      So where does the threshold lie?  On the whim of the NCAT member, it would seem.  One strata building that has a clear set of by-laws banning air conditioning (it is an award-winning ’green’ building) refused an application from an owner to install air-con.  The owner went ahead and after months of legal wrangling, NCAT told the owners corp ithat it did not have the power to enforce its own ruling that the air-con be removed.  What a waste of time and money!

      OK, that’s just three examples of inconsistency, lack of logic and failure to impose strata law. But are there more.

      I am interested in hearing your stories about your experiences with NCAT.  Are the any better than the CTTT or is it just the same old clowns with a different name.  Write to us here in complete confidence – no names, no packdrill – and we’ll see if things are as bad as they seem or better than they were before.

      The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
    Viewing 12 replies - 1 through 12 (of 12 total)
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    • #24357

      Hi Jimmy,
      I have loads to share with you over the next few months but as I have my case in Court and am also seeking a response from the Principal Registrar, Deputy Pres and President… They should be well worth your while.

      To be clear, I am 100% in favour of abolishing the NCAT and replace it with an entity that will apply the law similar to a superior court. The findings and games playing the NCAT have engaged in are an ‘Abuse of Process’ in my opinion, but I would also be seeking to join them under the Hardiman principals in a seperate court action, then they will pay for their poor decisions.

      Clowns is not the phrase I’d use but we have to remember these people are public servents with the lazy, quick, easy stigmatas that apply being ever present.

      Once I have a formal response from them after their investigations (review of submissions, evidence and hearing audio files) is complete, I will give you all their formal responses.

      Their is loads more on here that appear to have similar ‘silly’ determinations made by Adjudicators / Tribunal Members and they should be ashamed of their duty to NSW People… I hope the Authorney General takes action against these twits as they are definitely a big part of the huge strata issue NSW currently suffers from.

      Thom

      #24359
      ccgirl
      Flatchatter

        Hi Jimmy,

        Do I take it from your post that there is little use in taking matters to NCAT?

        I obtained some information from you and Whale in the By-laws & outlaws forum and was considering going to the NCAT, but your post above makes me wonder if I would be wasting my time and money?

        #24362
        Jimmy-T
        Keymaster
        Chat-starter

          @ccgirl said:
          I obtained some information from you and Whale in the By-laws & outlaws forum and was considering going to the NCAT, but your post above makes me wonder if I would be wasting my time and money?

          I wouldn’t say that but I also hear that it can be a bit of a lottery – it very much depends on who you get as an adjudicator or Member.

          I am trying not to pre-judge this and I’m hoping to get a bit more feedback from industry professionals as well as strata residents on what the realities are.

          Getting back to your issues, the better prepared you are with a concisely presented case backed by rock solid facts, the more chance you have of success. 

          The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
          #24367
          Axl
          Flatchatter

            NCAT – the embodiment of every Kafkaesque/Orwellian/Huxleyan dystopia right here on Castlereagh Street. I am sure that Dante’s inscription is above the entry, and if not, it should be: “Abandon HOpe, All ye Who Enter Here” Forget your by-laws, NCAT will never uphold them! And if you want to break by-laws, go right ahead…

            #24368
            Millie
            Flatchatter

              Axl, I wish I could say:  “Noooo!”

              I can’t.

              #24401

              We had an issue last year in our building where a lot owner had removed lights from the common property walls on their balcony and bolted a timber fence to the balcony wall. The item was dealt with as a bylaw breach and put through NCAT. The item went to a hearing which was dismissed on a technicality. On appeal the items were again dismissed. The tribunal member even decided that the stock standard by-law against driving nails, screws and attaching things and painting common property was “oppressive” and “unworkable” despite this actually being a model by-law in the NSW legislation… Apparently according to the tribunal member the Owners Corporation was negligent in not painting the building so the owner painting the outside of the building another colour was OK – even though the owner had never asked the Owners Corporation to perform maintenance…. Seems the system is still broken!

              #24402
              Pamster
              Flatchatter

                Hi my solicitor who worked in the same law firm as victor dominello some years ago, has lodged a complaint with the president of NCAT regarding an adjudicator, due to an appalling and prejudicial decision he made which was overturned on appeal. His erroneous decision gave the respondents (the EC) confidence to continue acting predjucially and unlawfully towards me which has cost me thousands in legal fees. The application for costs was summarily dismissed, the tribunal member stated the respondents were entitled to rely on a flawed decision! I am appealing the costs decision with a new application to be heard by the appeal panel. I am probably on a hiding to nothing because it appears NCAT rarely award costs against the owners corporation.
                A number of instances that shocked my solicitor (who had not dealt with NCAT before, though he had been warned by fellow lawyers) occurred at the appeal hearing, one was the respondents attempting to present as evidence a “without prejudice” letter from my solicitor on which he had not waived privilege, when my solicitor objected the tribunal member stated ” the normal rules of evidence do not apply at NCAT”.

                The other occurrence was the respondents giving evidence from the bar table with no oaths having been taking. When my solicitor objected and stated that oaths should be taken and the verbal evidence should be given from the witness box, the tribunal member threatened to throw him out of the tribunal!, in the 30 plus years my solicitor has been practicing law he has never been threatened with ejection from any court.

                Your comments are very funny and i only wish there were more newsletters, this one certainly gave me a cheery start to an overcast Sunday.

                #24406

                Hi Pamster,

                You sound like another ideal candidate for Jimmy to use as a precedent for poor NCAT performance.

                One thing for sure is that the common law principles re ‘privilege’ cannot be circumvented by Tribunal Members. But if your solicitor served the document on the opposing party then ‘privilege’ may have been lost?

                Generally, documents in Tribunal hearings as a whole are considered ‘privilege’ in that they cannot be used ‘against’ parties in other proceedings… But it sounds like the member wasn’t happy with your solicitor not knowing how the Tribunal works rather than anything else.

                Still, an idiot is an idiot. Or in this case… a Clown!!

                If your matter is serious enough, you should consider a court of law! It could be worth joining the Tribunal under the ‘Hardiman’ precedents too if they have breached their obligations or indeed acted in a prejudice manner that would amount to an abuse of process.

                Personally speaking, costs should NOT be awarded in Tribunal proceedings regarding ‘internal’ disputes between the OC and it’s members… It’s fraud on the minority in my opinion, no matter which side of the fence you sit on. Courts can and should award costs though.

                I’d love to know who your solicitor is as he sounds great (honest at least). What area of law does he practice?

                #24410
                Jimmy-T
                Keymaster
                Chat-starter

                  @isydowner said:

                  I’d love to know who your solicitor is as he sounds great (honest at least). What area of law does he practice?

                  You can contact other forum members directly using the PM button (next to Delete), without either party having to reveal their true identity. 

                  The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                  #24422
                  Pamster
                  Flatchatter

                    I asked my Solicitor (a Corporate  Lawyer with 30+ years experience in a major Sydney Law Firm) if he would work at NCAT if he received “the call”  – his response;

                    ” Mediocrity is not something I aspire to”.

                    #24476

                    Dear Jimmy

                    I would to share my comments with you regarding NCAT.

                    Back in July 2015 and after an unsuccessful attempt for a Notice to Comply and mediation, my neighbour and I submitted individual NCAT applications with the same details,logs and supporting documentation regarding orders under Section 138 of the SSMA 1996 regarding insufficient floor coverings causing noise disturbance

                    My neighbour who was the most effected and suffered for over 15 months with the noise disturbance and behaviour of the tenant (owner’s son and partner) received no order against the owner and it was dismissed. But I, on the hand, received an order for breaches of Bylaws 1 and 8.

                    To this day, I still do not understand how two different Strata Schemes Adjudicators make their decisions as it appears that there is no consistency within NCAT.

                    It is a circus!

                    #24512
                    Pamster
                    Flatchatter

                      I have been dealing with NCAT for the past year and have come to the conclusion that it operates in a parallel universe to every other legal jurisdiction.
                      I have had a few decisions in my favour but yesterday one was dismissed. The adjudicator agreed with everything I submitted but in the end dismissed the application because she said I had not “included a copy of the proposed By-law I wished to have adopted”.
                      I had submitted the Proposed By-law (that she claimed was missing) one day prior to the closing date of 17 December. The Registry told me they had a record of me having gone to the counter in Castlereagh St to deliver it. The clerk could even recite to me the whole content of the document, including the proposed By-law!

                      Why the Adjudicator never got to see it is anyone’s guess, maybe it fell into the “Black Hole” that exists in that particular parallel universe! Looks like another appeal and another $81.00 has to be paid by me to get the result that should have gone my way in the first place, apparently they won’t waive the fee for the appeal even though the error was NCAT’s.

                      As a follow up, my solicitor wrote to the Adjudicator advising her that the “missing” documents were in the file, and he requested that she vary her decision. Her response was that I did not submit the by law “in time” so could not vary her decision, she stated the By-law was submitted on the 18th December, when her very own registry stated they have a record of me delivering it on the 17th!
                      It appears in this particular jurisdiction, whether you are an Applicant or Respondent, if your case is against the Owner’s Corporation, every obstacle possible will be placed in your way to deny you having an order granted in your favour.
                      So………here I go again…………… back to the Tribunal to appeal, this three ringed circus that is NCAT is absolutely ridiculous!

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